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Topic: Record SACD full 24bit (Read 14431 times) previous topic - next topic
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Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #25 –
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Thank you all
You have made a clear statement
I will move to another forum

I enjoyed staing here!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357670"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This does not mean that you are unwelcome at Hydrogenaudio, merely that the topic of discussion in this thread is not encouraged. If you want to discuss something else, or contribute to an existing thread, please stick around.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #26 –
I know everyone likes to jump on the DMCA bandwagon when anything like this comes up, it is really easy to say, but is it relevant in this case?

Does an SACD employ any form of encryption? I am guessing it does not (note proprietry encoding does not equal encryption), if it is not encrypted no DCMA applies.

It is like those copy protected audio cds, ZERO threats have been handed out to companies who handle those cds ( it is ashame that the option was removed from EAC), because you know why, it wouldn't last 2 seconds in a court (the audio data is not encrypted or copy protected, they are just using false TOCs, the real one is there, if you read the real TOC and audio data there is no DCMA infringement).

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #27 –
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SACD players not having digital outputs is a copy protection mechanism. Modifying an SACD player to have a digital output is circumventing that.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357633"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think so. Not having a digital output is just a hardware limitation and modifying my player to overcome it will very likely void my warranty but it is otherwise perfectly legal (I think in all civilized countries).


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Please continue, but on a forum where these modifications are discussed on a daily basis.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357644"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, but are you a mod or an admin to say this with authority or just a (non paying) member like myself?


Cheers!

Sergio

Edit: spelling
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #28 –
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Sorry, but are you a mod or an admin to say this with authority or just a (non paying) member like myself?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357701"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Our votes cancel each other out then, don't they. Then how many are there left? Perhaps we wait for an admin to decide if the technical discussion can continue here. Their asses are on the line, not ours. If we can continue here, all the better.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #29 –
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Sorry, but are you a mod or an admin to say this with authority or just a (non paying) member like myself?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357701"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Our votes cancel each other out then, don't they. Then how many are there left? Perhaps we wait for an admin to decide if the technical discussion can continue here. Their asses are on the line, not ours. If we can continue here, all the better.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357710"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well... not exactly, because I just expressed my opinion on this matter (whether it is legal or not to modify your SACD player and discuss the bits of that here) On the other hand, if I'm not mistaken, you not only expressed your opinion, but also  asked another member to not continue his discussion on this board, which I think it is a duty and a privilege of the moderators. Moderators *DO* monitor the forums and if they find something they think it is wrong they move it to the "Recycle Bin", they advice of the problem or just get rid of the whole thread if they think it is better so. In any case if you really think there is a problem with this thread you, as any other member, can report this to a moderator.

Cheers!

Sergio
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #30 –
Well, none of the admins or moderators is a lawyer. I have no clue whether this is against the DMCA or not. That's why nobody commented on it. You guys seem to understand the possible issues without a reminder from our side, anyway.

A discussion whether a certain quality improvement to a hardware device is legal is certainly on-topic here and probably quite interesting.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #31 –
Like the rest of you, I am not a lawyer, but I would guess that modifying hardware to defeat the "no digital out" requirement of SACD players would count as circumvention of a copy protection device under the DMCA.

Phillips have obviously prevented a digital stream of SACD data from being extracted from the device. Using a SPDIF encoder (such as CS8406) would allow one to get around this protection scheme. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that this is a protection scheme.

Obviously, doing this modification in order to make pirate copies of copy protected material is unethical and probably illegal. I believe that doing a modification like this in order to make backup copies of material you have purchased is ethical and is likely to be legal in most countries.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #32 –
The main point for things like this has often been, if a modification both has a reasonable legal use - as well as an illegal - the mod itself is legal. It doesn't become illegal until you use it for the illegal application (like making and distributing copies of a commercial disc). But companies/authorities has tampered with that right lately.

A disc does NOT have to be encrypted/copy protected for it being illegal to make copies and distribute them. You just break a different law.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #33 –
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The main point for things like this has often been, if a modification both has a reasonable legal use - as well as an illegal - the mod itself is legal. It doesn't become illegal until you use it for the illegal application (like making and distributing copies of a commercial disc). But companies/authorities has tampered with that right lately.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357794"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ripping a DVD (decrypting CSS) is something that has both legal and illegal use. It's seems quite clearly to be considered illegal under current US law [1].

[1] HA is situated in Texas.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #34 –
Yes, as I wrote the "rights of fair use" has been tampered with lately. In the name of the "Holy War Against The Terrorists". So what was considered (it's always about interpretations of several contradicting laws) legal a couple of years ago may not be so now.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #35 –
As already stated by Spoon it doesn't seems that the SACD format incorporate any encryption or anti-ripping mechanism. There are only technical "difficulties" doing so. Quite the same situation as making a "perfect" CD-DA rip, only harder.

IMHO if we are allowed to talk about CD-DA ripping then we are also allowed to talk about SACD ripping. The situation is completly different, I think, for medias where encryption is used.

Obviously what tommypeters said still holds: there can be illegal (as well as legal) ways to use such a mod to a SACD player. But then it is your act that is illegal, not the implement you use to commit such act. An hammer is not an illegal implement but using it to harm somebody surely is.

Sergio
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #36 –
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As already stated by Spoon it doesn't seems that the SACD format incorporate any encryption or anti-ripping mechanism.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357801"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm not so sure about that. Even if drives existed which could extract the DSD data, IIRC that data is somehow encrypted. Someone with more knowledge of SACD specifications might be able to better comment on that.

However, even assuming the format itself has no copy protection, it's a fact that in order to make an SACD player, you agree that your player will NOT have digital outputs. Why? To restrict copying.

It's true that this is merely a limitation imposed on the player, but it's a limitation imposed for a reason. It's a form of copy protection, which under the DMCA is illegal to circumvent. Even talking about (!) ways to get around it is technically illegal in the US.

This is to say nothing about the ethics of it all. In the US, it's technically illegal to wear a t-shirt with the CSS decrypting algorithm printed on it. Just thinking about it ticks me off. 

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #37 –
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_Audio_CD:

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SACD has copy prevention features at the physical level, which for the moment appear to make this format nearly impossible to perfectly copy. These include 80 bit encryption of the audio data, with a key encoded on a special area of the disk that is only readable by a licensed SACD


So... it is probably illegal to modify a SACD player to circumvent what is not just a limitation but a real copy protection mechanism (and thus also talking about that, as silly this can be).

Any lawyer's sticking around??

Sergio
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #38 –
The end user is within their own rights to format shift media they own, the DCMA cannot touch them (even if it involves modifing a cd player they own). The DCMA only relates to the spread of information to break copy protection (through publishing) / publishing of tools. The same protection is also afforded to patents - publish of information that breaks a patent, do you see eveyone jumping on a link to Lame? no, and rightly not.

So don't make life easy for these companies which try to destroy your rights (by effectively buying politicians), their laws are NOTHING to do with copyrights.

There are also interoperbility / research / reverse engineering clauses within the DMCA, to think about.

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #39 –
OK, after reading the relevant text of the DMCA (go to section 1201) I THINK I've come over to the other side on this.

The DMCA states
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`(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEASURES- (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


But, it then states that the above provision shall not apply to persons making noninfringing use of the material, including
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(ii) the availability for use of works for nonprofit archival ... purposes


However the next subsection then states
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(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that--

        `(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;

        `(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or

        `© is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


Would telling the public how to get a digital output from an SACD player - a feature omitted for purposes of copy protection - be "providing a service that is primarily designed for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure?" I think the RIAA's lawyers would be able to successfully argue so.

After examining the text I can't find how it would be illegal to do it yourself for nonprofit archival purposes if you don't spread the knowledge. Of course I'm no lawyer. And after going through all that jibberish I wouldn't want to be!

Record SACD full 24bit

Reply #40 –
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Would telling the public how to get a digital output from an SACD player - a feature omitted for purposes of copy protection - be "providing a service that is primarily designed for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure?" I think the RIAA's lawyers would be able to successfully argue so.


I believe those passages are ANDed together.  So you can traffic in adapters or whatever if theres significant commercial use for them other then piracy.  In this case, you could argue that it enabled interoperability with digital recievers perhaps, and since there is no meaningful piracy of SACD content, I think it would be an uphill battle to claim the comercial uses were invalid.

Also, its not clear that discussion qualifies as a service.  No one here is offering to adapt the player itself, rather they're just disucssing the possibility of moding a player.  This thread may not even qualify in the first place.

That said, what the law allows is largely irrelevent since this case would never come to court.