Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc (Read 6584 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Recently a guy made some quite decent comments/tutorials through zeropaid.com that I'm sure will help newbies get rid of Xing/Blade and other false opinions that might have.

I think they are worth checking out:

MP3

and

MPC or OGG?

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #1 –
Just one comment.. I haven't read the article in-depth yet, but this:

Quote
According to MusePack.org the MPC format will not stay freeware. Since MP+/MPC utilizes some patented mp2-algorithms there are royalties to be paid to the patent holders. This means mpc will be distributed as shareware. The decoder as well as the plugin and the related sources will stay free.


I really think this is outdated information now and no longer holds.  This information is from a time when Andree, not Frank, was working on the encoder.  Andree seems to have disappeared and most of the other claims about MPC's future from him do not seem to be following their course..

Since Frank is almost rewritting the entirety of MPC, it's possible that it may even become open source at some point, but regardless of whether that happens or not, I don't think it would be possible for Andree to tell Frank that he could not release his encoder for free anymore.  This would be even more so when the SV8 encoders are finally released.  The modifications to the MPC format and code would be so extensive then that it would be likely that significantly more of the work was Franks than Andree's.

Back to the topic of patents, Frank has made some comments about the fact that the patents will be running out before all that long anyway..

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #2 –
Yeah Myden's a pretty knowledgeable person but that's because I believe he's gotten all of his info from here. Although I couldn't find his name in the member list I could have sworn he posted in here sometime this summer. Anyways his site has some tutorials for setting up EAC with LAME --aps and it is a pretty good place for newbies to learn what to do.
Sorry, I have nothing witty to say here.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #3 –
In my opinion, Chris Myden's comments are both informative and interesting. I learned A LOT from him over at the EAC forums where he outlined information regarding caching and C2 error correction, among other things. By the way, here's a link to his profile.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #4 –
Well, checked the MPC-text, and there's another thing which I'd say is somewhat questional.
Quote
According to audiophiles, MPC is actually 100% transparent.
So for MPC to boast that their encoder is 100% transparent is very impressive. (It's achieved with an average bit-rate of about 230kb/s).

I would never say MPC is 100% transparent. I'd avoid such strict conclusions even when explaining something to total newbies.
Of course it may be needed if people have had the impression that 64kbps WMA is CD quality, but still... I don't know.. 

Overall the article is quite fine though.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #5 –
Quote
Back to the topic of patents, Frank has made some comments about the fact that the patents will be running out before all that long anyway..

Yeah, Frank indeed hinted that it's possible MPC will become open-source after the SV8 and code cleaning. Let's hope so.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #6 –
The links to audio-illumination.org should be changed to hydrogenaudio.org

Quote
Make no mistake, OGG is very, very good, but it has not even come close to reaching it's potential yet. While MP3 and MPC have pretty much reached the end of the line in terms of being tweaked and improved, OGG is just starting to receive the necessary attention.

Misleading. Ogg although not fully tuned is already better than MP3 and is already ready to use. 64kbps test already proves that it is the best or equivilent to the best at that bitrate, and similar results are likely for 128kbps. He really needs to emphasize on that.

Quote
I would have a hard time recommending OGG over MP3 at this point in time, simply because there isn't much advantage (even in file size). Once OGG is tuned a little more, and there are more OGG players on the market it will be a different story. If you want to get a head start in the OGG world though, maybe now is the time.

This is the kind of attitude which slows down the progress of Ogg Vorbis. If everybody 'waits until it becomes more widespread', it will never become widespread. If Ogg Vorbis is to become widespread, YOU who have heard about it and know that it is the format to use, YOU must start using it and advocating it.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #7 –
Quote
64kbps test already proves that it is the best or equivilent to the best at that bitrate, and similar results are likely for 128kbps. He really needs to emphasize on that.

Why are similar results likely?  I'm all for a 128kbit test, set up like the 64kbit one, but right now nothing is proven.  Who would have guessed the winner of the 64bit test (overall) was mp3pro?  Not I.  Surprises can happen that make a mess of our assumptions

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #8 –
Quote
Why are similar results likely?  I'm all for a 128kbit test, set up like the 64kbit one, but right now nothing is proven.  Who would have guessed the winner of the 64bit test (overall) was mp3pro?  Not I.  Surprises can happen that make a mess of our assumptions

Since when did mp3pro 'win' the 64kbps test? The results showed that Ogg and MP3Pro were clearly better than all the other encoders but cannot show that any one of the two is better than the other.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #9 –
JohnV / Dibrom:

Quote
Quote
Back to the topic of patents, Frank has made some comments about the fact that the patents will be running out before all that long anyway..


Yeah, Frank indeed hinted that it's possible MPC will become open-source after the SV8 and code cleaning. Let's hope so.


Could you provide some links or quotes, if you have any?

That would be awesome! I'd probably switch formats *again*, then. And deeply regret having switched to Vorbis.


About that EAC/LAME guide... it doesn't say anything about detecting the drive features! But the idea of having the user download a ready-made config file is quite cool.

I object to the style of writing used though... it somehow comes across arrogant. The Ogg/MPC article sounds a lot better.

<OT> By the way - in the links to HA, the session IDs are included, which obviously shouldn't be the case... is there any chance the option to hide session IDs could be disabled? </OT>

CU

Dominic

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #10 –
Quote
Could you provide some links or quotes, if you have any?

That would be awesome! I'd probably switch formats *again*, then. And deeply regret having switched to Vorbis.

It was more along the lines that he thought he could work around the patents which MPC currently violates, by rewriting the code and possibly breaking backward compatibility, but that he currently didn't see the point.

Don't regret Vorbis too soon.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #11 –
Quote
<OT> By the way - in the links to HA, the session IDs are included, which obviously shouldn't be the case... is there any chance the option to hide session IDs could be disabled? </OT>

"control panel" -> "Board Settings" -> "Do you wish to hide your session id in the links?"

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #12 –
How many people are working on ogg v. mpc? 

Also, to use eac with mpc, do you need a cd in the drive.  I didn't, and choosing the profile, I failed to make any eacmpc files.  On the command line I was only able to make one file at a time, which is arduous to say the least.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #13 –
Quote
Quote
<OT> By the way - in the links to HA, the session IDs are included, which obviously shouldn't be the case... is there any chance the option to hide session IDs could be disabled? </OT>

"control panel" -> "Board Settings" -> "Do you wish to hide your session id in the links?"

Volcano was referring to the links in myden's article, mind you..
A riddle is a short sword attached to the next 2000 years.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #14 –
Regardless the minor (or less minor) flaws and misconceptions in those "reviews", I'm sure that most will agree that it's a step forward compared to other sources of information that we have encountered many times in the past. The more "light" approach appeals a lot to the thousands of misleaded newbies that visit zeropaid daily...and the point is that not only his has focused on Lame and the presets, but he also mentions Hydrogen Audio for others to continue their "adventure" in the encoding/ripping issues.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #15 –
Quote
Quote
I would have a hard time recommending OGG over MP3 at this point in time, simply because there isn't much advantage (even in file size). Once OGG is tuned a little more, and there are more OGG players on the market it will be a different story. If you want to get a head start in the OGG world though, maybe now is the time.

This is the kind of attitude which slows down the progress of Ogg Vorbis. If everybody 'waits until it becomes more widespread', it will never become widespread. If Ogg Vorbis is to become widespread, YOU who have heard about it and know that it is the format to use, YOU must start using it and advocating it.

I agree with this.  If people just wait around for something to happen, it's not going to happen.  You have to take action and get things going yourself.  If you generate interest, other people will pay attention and they to will in turn generate interest.  MPC is a very good example of this.  A few months before Hydrogenaudio was formed, the format was not very widely heard of at all.  It's still nowhere near being used as much as Vorbis, but because of this site, constant discussion, and people going ahead and using it for themselves despite the fact that not everyone else was, there's now actually a pretty strong community behind it.

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #16 –
Quote
Quote
Could you provide some links or quotes, if you have any?

That would be awesome! I'd probably switch formats *again*, then. And deeply regret having switched to Vorbis.

It was more along the lines that he thought he could work around the patents which MPC currently violates, by rewriting the code and possibly breaking backward compatibility, but that he currently didn't see the point.

Don't regret Vorbis too soon.

IIRC, he also clearly did say that the patents would also be running out before long.. I believe that's one of the reasons he didn't see much point in putting a bunch of effort into working around them right now.

Also, MPC may become open source regardless of patents.  I was talking to Frank the other day, and the only thing really holding it back from going open right now is Andree.  He hasn't said it's OK.  Once Frank has rewritten the rest of the encoder and changed to the new format though, I'm not sure it will really be Andree's call anymore though..

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #17 –
Quote
Quote
Could you provide some links or quotes, if you have any?

That would be awesome! I'd probably switch formats *again*, then. And deeply regret having switched to Vorbis.

It was more along the lines that he thought he could work around the patents which MPC currently violates, by rewriting the code and possibly breaking backward compatibility, but that he currently didn't see the point.

Don't regret Vorbis too soon.

Well, soon he wouldn't have to worry about work around the patents, because the pantents are going old. Granted, I don't know the timeline when the patents are actually going old.
I couldn't quickly find the comments by Klemm about the possible open source, but I remember it vividly.  Maybe it was an email. Anyway, I'm fairly sure he won't say anything certain about that. We just have to see what happens. Probably after SV8 we know more.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #18 –
Quote
Also, MPC may become open source regardless of patents.  I was talking to Frank the other day, and the only thing really holding it back from going open right now is Andree.  He hasn't said it's OK.

Andree is a nice guy, but too busy nowadays. I'm pretty sure Andree would agree about going open source at some point, it would be only good for the popularity of the format.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #19 –
Quote
Quote
Also, MPC may become open source regardless of patents.  I was talking to Frank the other day, and the only thing really holding it back from going open right now is Andree.  He hasn't said it's OK.

Andree is a nice guy, but too busy nowadays. I'm pretty sure Andree would agree about going open source at some point, it would be only good for the popularity of the format.

Yeah, I know he's a nice guy and all, but he's practically disappeared from all MPC related matters.  Also, I'm not so certain that he'd say yes to going open source.  I kind of got the impression that it was because he was not OK with this that it was not open source already.  Of course, I don't know for sure....  does anyone actually still talk to him on a regular basis?  Maybe someone can ask... if all that's needed is for him to say yes, and he has no problem with this, then I don't really see why we're waiting around..

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #20 –
Ok, I can ask..

I got the impression that one of the biggest reason not going open source previously was that code had to be cleaned up first.

[edit]Mail sent to both Andree and Frank. Lets see..
Juha Laaksonheimo

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #21 –
I got email reply from Frank. Basically he said he got the source code of mppenc under a N.D.A. from Andree and at least parts of the encoder which are directly and indirectly based on Andree's work can't be published without the permission of Andree.

So in order to MPC to go open source, Andree's permission is needed. According to the email, Frank didn't imply that he has anything against going open source. I think it's pretty much up to Andree. Lets see what Andree says.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #22 –
If SV8 is ever going open source, have you considered the posibility of using the ogg container format? (just to have speex, vorbis and musepack all together for lq, mq and hq )
She is waiting in the air

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #23 –
Quote
If SV8 is ever going open source, have you considered the posibility of using the ogg container format? (just to have speex, vorbis and musepack all together for lq, mq and hq )

Ehh... No that would be FLAC as HQ...

Some Decent Commentary On Mp3/ogg And Mpc

Reply #24 –
MPC going opensource (maybe) I'd never thought I'd see the day!  All in all I'm a very happy MPC user atm and I haven't looked back after choosing MPC, it has given me everything I ever wanted: ape tags, high quality, serious development without commercial based decisions, speed, bragging rights , ... .  And sv8 can only become better!

Quote
Well, soon he wouldn't have to worry about work around the patents, because the pantents are going old


What is meant by this?  As I understand it the patents will be too old for their owners to have interest in them or is it that the patents will not be "active" anymore??

Because sometimes companys can become "interested" when the product (MPC) that uses its patents becomes popular.  No matter how old those patents are.