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stereo or joint stereo?

Hi, this is my first message here, and i'm an ogg vorbis newbie.

I plan to convert my cd collection in this format but i'm unsure about the quality level to use. I want to use the best between 5 and 6, so i was wondering which is.

If i understood well, quality 5 files has something like 30 kbps less than quality 6, but they are joint stereo, while quality 6 files do lossless audio coupling.
So if more than 30 kbps (the difference between the two) are used for informations that are "double", the joint stero file should sound better than the stereo file. Does this happen?

For instance lame preset standard files are joint stereo to sound better than some pure stereo files, isn't it?


sorry for my bad english

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #1
The most logic explanation is that the devs made q5 lossy JS because at q5 lossy JS results in better quality, and made q6 use lossless coupling because at q6 that results in better quality. Else, the encoder is flawed.

Will q6 be of better quality? Of course, and it will use more bits.
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #2
Thanks Lyx, it seems convincing.


OT: then i'm wondering why in LAME a 192 kbps VBR file is not JS by default, but you have to use the preset standard

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #3
Quote
Hi, this is my first message here, and i'm an ogg vorbis newbie.

I plan to convert my cd collection in this format but i'm unsure about the quality level to use. I want to use the best between 5 and 6, so i was wondering which is.

If i understood well, quality 5 files has something like 30 kbps less than quality 6, but they are joint stereo, while quality 6 files do lossless audio coupling.
So if more than 30 kbps (the difference between the two) are used for informations that are "double", the joint stero file should sound better than the stereo file. Does this happen?

For instance lame preset standard files are joint stereo to sound better than some pure stereo files, isn't it?


sorry for my bad english
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324870"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


you can choose between joint stereo and stereo.  Joint stereo is almost always preferable, because the net effect at the bitrates you're using is a gain in quality.
Search the forums for more info, there's plenty from the LAME ppl

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #4
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OT: then i'm wondering why in LAME a 192 kbps VBR file is not JS by default, but you have to use the preset standard
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324875"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Depends on which LAME version is used. AFAIK, with newer LAME versions, JS is the default when using -V(br). Not sure if this is also the case with 3.90.3. In case you use a *frontend* to set the encodersettings, then it may also be the fault of the frontend(which could maybe pass options which you didn't specify)
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #5
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Will q6 be of better quality? Of course, and it will use more bits.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324873"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd say it depends. It depends on how you define quality, but if they're both transparent, you can argue that both have the same perceived quality.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #6
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Will q6 be of better quality? Of course, and it will use more bits.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324873"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd say it depends. It depends on how you define quality, but if they're both transparent, you can argue that both have the same perceived quality.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324884"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Such a discussion is useless, because without himself doing a blind-test, we can only talk about "theoretical quality", not about perceivable quality. Of course it should be obvious that *most* people cannot tell the difference between both anyways with the latest vorbis encoders.
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #7
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Such a discussion is useless, because without himself doing a blind-test, we can only talk about "theoretical quality", not about perceivable quality. Of course it should be obvious that *most* people cannot tell the difference between both anyways with the latest vorbis encoders.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324887"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, obviously i was talking about theoretical quality. Now I haven't got an equipment where to hear any difference, even with the finest ears. But i don't want to be disappointed when i'll have it, the bitrate difference between the two is not a problem for me, I was only asking about quality, as i don't know how Vorbis quality relates to MP3. Some say a 160 JS MP3 sound better than a 192 Stereo, so i was wondering if the same goes for Vorbis.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #8
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Will q6 be of better quality? Of course, and it will use more bits.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324873"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd say it depends. It depends on how you define quality, but if they're both transparent, you can argue that both have the same perceived quality.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324884"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Such a discussion is useless, because without himself doing a blind-test, we can only talk about "theoretical quality", not about perceivable quality. Of course it should be obvious that *most* people cannot tell the difference between both anyways with the latest vorbis encoders.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324887"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which brings up another point. I agree such a discussion is close to useless, and IMHO questions of "Which one's better?" should be answered with "Try listenling to it!"

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #9
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Such a discussion is useless, because without himself doing a blind-test, we can only talk about "theoretical quality", not about perceivable quality. Of course it should be obvious that *most* people cannot tell the difference between both anyways with the latest vorbis encoders.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324887"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, obviously i was talking about theoretical quality. Now I haven't got an equipment where to hear any difference, even with the finest ears. But i don't want to be disappointed when i'll have it, the bitrate difference between the two is not a problem for me, I was only asking about quality, as i don't know how Vorbis quality relates to MP3. Some say a 160 JS MP3 sound better than a 192 Stereo, so i was wondering if the same goes for Vorbis.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324898"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Differences in equipment shouldn't make much difference IMHO, unless you have the cheapest equipment possible.

I'd say testing with your current setup would be more than safe.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #10
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Differences in equipment shouldn't make much difference IMHO, unless you have the cheapest equipment possible.

I'd say testing with your current setup would be more than safe.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324900"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, let's say that: do you agree that a quality 6 vorbis is at least as good as a quality 5 one, even if sometimes a 160 kbps JS MP3 can beat a 192 kpbs stereo MP3?

I don't care about their size difference, so imagine they're of the same size: which one would you chose?

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #11
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I'd say testing with your current setup would be more than safe.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=324900"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or, if you have to be paranoid, find the lowest q-setting which is transparent to you, and then pick one number higher.
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #12
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Well, let's say that: do you agree that a quality 6 vorbis is at least as good as a quality 5 one

Yes.

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I don't care about their size difference, so imagine they're of the same size: which one would you chose?

If size is unimportant, then i would begin to think about a lossless codec - unless you want to play the files on a hardware-player(then the matter becomes a bit more complex).

Or, if you just want to know if q6 is with a high probability safe to use, then the answer is yes(but make sure that you use the current autuv-encoder).
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #13
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I don't care about their size difference, so imagine they're of the same size: which one would you chose?

If size is unimportant, then i would begin to think about a lossless codec - unless you want to play the files on a hardware-player(then the matter becomes a bit more complex).

I was saying that the difference of size between quality 5 and 6 is not important. I already use flac if i want to go lossless.

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(but make sure that you use the current autuv-encoder).

I'm using oggenc.exe 1.1.1 found at rarewares (that produces the same output as oggdropXP 1.8.6). Is it not good?

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #14
At around q5 160k you get decent quality, but nothing seems to be really changing in perceptual coding by a landmark. 160k is considered close, 200k is more or less transparent, 250k + extra headroom, more secure.

Q5 vorbis is great for portable use or even PC. But if one is going to archive in lossy I would definately go for Q6  - Q8 or even higher.
wavpack 4.8 -b256hx6c

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #15
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(but make sure that you use the current autuv-encoder).

I'm using oggenc.exe 1.1.1 found at rarewares (that produces the same output as oggdropXP 1.8.6). Is it not good?

I'm quite sure Lyx means the aotuv b4 version (from http://www.rarewares.org/ogg.html - "Oggenc2.6 using aoTuVb4 (libVorbis v1.1.1)").

stereo or joint stereo?

Reply #16
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If I understood well, quality 5 files has something like 30 kbps less than quality 6, but they are joint stereo, while quality 6 files do lossless audio coupling.


Vorbis DOESN't use "joint-stereo" that's a term reserved for MP3, AAC, etc.  It does just the opposite it mid-side is (l-r)/2, etc, Vorbis exploits the CORRELATION between both channels. Point stereo only effects the amplitude at mid/high frequencies I am not sure were the cross over is, but I highly DOUBT you will be able to detect any degregation due to it. The only time is was effected was by the "HF boost issue" along time which has since been corrected.  If you are concerend about it use -q 6 that's why it's not used above that level. In fact the "HF boost issue" had to to with the amplitude fluttering instead of staying a constant level
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