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Topic: -V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10 (Read 16436 times) previous topic - next topic
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-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #25 –
I went back to 3.90.3's preset medium because i remember doing some test encodes to check file sizes some time ago and finding that 3.90.3 preset medium encodes had larger size over preset medium in 3.96.1, but i didn't test quality.

Now that i am looking for quality i went back to 3.90.3 to check it out. I've only done a couple of informal tests and found that 3.90.3 preset medium encodes does have less HF smearing in the files in wich i found smearing with 3.97 -V4, im not sure but i think its because -V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10 and 3.96.1 dont encode anything over 16kH in vbr-new mode, wich is the only mode i tested. Read sTisTi's thread about the -Y switch, then it will make more sense, scince i didn't use fast mode on 3.90.3.

i think the safest options to compare are -V4 on both 3.96.1 and 3.97 without vbr-new so the -Y switch performs as it should, -V3 on both versions too with vbr-new, and 3.90.3 preset medium.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #26 –
After some 25 encodes of the same file (Opeth - The Leper Affinity), i found some watery effects on 3.90.3 preset medium and on 3.97a11 and 3.96.1 -V4 (i decided to not use --vbr-new because of the -Y bug), although a bit less noticeable on 3.96.1 and 3.97a11. -V3 also showed the same effect but to a much smaller degree on both 3.96.1 and a11.

This effect was reduced nicely while testing the file at --alt-preset 160 on all 3 encoders, but still the effect was most present on the 3.97a11 encode (this time i did ABX tests on all encodes to be shure), but after searching about ABR here on HA i found a thread about a bug in low/mid bitrate 3.96.1 ABR and got suspicious, but couldnt differentiate between the 3.90.3 and 3.96.1 160kbps abr files.

Finally, i also tried 160kbps CBR, testing all three lame encoders mentioned above and iTunes mp3 encoder. i wanted to try WMP10 but it doesnt have a 160kbps preset  .

3.90.3 and 3.96.1 were the same to my ears, and couldnt differentiate between these and their respective 160 ABR counterparts. 3.97a11 still had the most trouble with the watery effect. The iTunes encode worked nicely, the watery effect was less noticeable on the iTunes encode than on the 3.97a11 CBR encode and is comparable (to my ears) to both 3.90.3 and 3.96.1 CBR 160kbps.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #27 –
Quote
After some 25 encodes of the same file (Opeth - The Leper Affinity), i found some watery effects on 3.90.3 preset medium and on 3.97a11 and 3.96.1 -V4 (i decided to not use --vbr-new because of the -Y bug), although a bit less noticeable on 3.96.1 and 3.97a11. -V3 also showed the same effect but to a much smaller degree on both 3.96.1 and a11.

This effect was reduced nicely while testing the file at --alt-preset 160 on all 3 encoders, but still the effect was most present on the 3.97a11 encode (this time i did ABX tests on all encodes to be shure), but after searching about ABR here on HA i found a thread about a bug in low/mid bitrate 3.96.1 ABR and got suspicious, but couldnt differentiate between the 3.90.3 and 3.96.1 160kbps abr files.

Finally, i also tried 160kbps CBR, testing all three lame encoders mentioned above and iTunes mp3 encoder. i wanted to try WMP10 but it doesnt have a 160kbps preset  .

3.90.3 and 3.96.1 were the same to my ears, and couldnt differentiate between these and their respective 160 ABR counterparts. 3.97a11 still had the most trouble with the watery effect. The iTunes encode worked nicely, the watery effect was less noticeable on the iTunes encode than on the 3.97a11 CBR encode and is comparable (to my ears) to both 3.90.3 and 3.96.1 CBR 160kbps.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313482"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

skelly831: what would be good is if you could provide some ABX results and upload some samples (no more than 30secs [10secs is probably ok] and lossless is needed) of the audio tracks that sound 'watery' etc so that others can test too.

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #28 –
Will do. I'll put the test results here later and is a .WAV clip enough?, the problem section of the sample is about 10 secs long.

one problem, how do I upload a sample?

thanks!

EDIT, i know how to upload now.

check the uploads section for the sample.

thanks again.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #29 –
Quote
After some 25 encodes of the same file (Opeth - The Leper Affinity), i found some watery effects on 3.90.3 preset medium and on 3.97a11 and 3.96.1 -V4 (i decided to not use --vbr-new because of the -Y bug), although a bit less noticeable on 3.96.1 and 3.97a11.

You mean that you did 25 successive encode/decode on the same file? In this case it is not that surprising to hear artifacts, and this is hard to conclude based on this that one version or the other is better.

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #30 –
Quote
Quote
After some 25 encodes of the same file (Opeth - The Leper Affinity), i found some watery effects on 3.90.3 preset medium and on 3.97a11 and 3.96.1 -V4 (i decided to not use --vbr-new because of the -Y bug), although a bit less noticeable on 3.96.1 and 3.97a11.

You mean that you did 25 successive encode/decode on the same file? In this case it is not that surprising to hear artifacts, and this is hard to conclude based on this that one version or the other is better.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313688"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No. I encoded the same .WAV file with each encoder separately, using the original .WAV file for every encode.

BTW, the sample of the original .WAV is now posted.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #31 –
Which settings does --alt-preset extreme use? And is it affected/improved over 3.96?

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #32 –
Here are the listening tests.

WAV and 3.97a11 -V4:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 15:35:20

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.97a11 V4.mp3

15:36:19 : Test started.
15:37:13 : 01/01  50.0%
15:37:24 : 02/02  25.0%
15:37:39 : 03/03  12.5%
15:37:54 : 04/04  6.3%
15:38:05 : 05/05  3.1%
15:38:20 : 06/06  1.6%
15:38:35 : 07/07  0.8%
15:38:47 : 08/08  0.4%
15:38:57 : 09/09  0.2%
15:39:07 : 10/10  0.1%
15:39:09 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


WAV and 3.97a11 abr 160kbps:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 15:30:23

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.97a11 abr 160.mp3

15:31:51 : Test started.
15:32:34 : 01/01  50.0%
15:32:52 : 02/02  25.0%
15:33:03 : 03/03  12.5%
15:33:14 : 04/04  6.3%
15:33:29 : 05/05  3.1%
15:33:41 : 06/06  1.6%
15:33:56 : 07/07  0.8%
15:34:12 : 08/08  0.4%
15:34:23 : 09/09  0.2%
15:34:39 : 10/10  0.1%
15:34:40 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


WAV and 3.97a11 cbr 160kbps:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 15:24:36

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.97a11 cbr 160.mp3

15:25:56 : Test started.
15:26:28 : 01/01  50.0%
15:26:44 : 02/02  25.0%
15:26:59 : 03/03  12.5%
15:27:18 : 04/04  6.3%
15:27:34 : 05/05  3.1%
15:27:44 : 06/06  1.6%
15:27:55 : 07/07  0.8%
15:28:07 : 08/08  0.4%
15:28:18 : 09/09  0.2%
15:28:33 : 10/10  0.1%
15:28:36 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #33 –
Now 3.96.1.

WAV and 3.96.1 -V4:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 15:51:41

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.96.1 V4.mp3

15:53:06 : Test started.
15:53:34 : 01/01  50.0%
15:53:49 : 02/02  25.0%
15:54:05 : 03/03  12.5%
15:54:21 : 04/04  6.3%
15:54:32 : 05/05  3.1%
15:54:49 : 06/06  1.6%
15:55:09 : 07/07  0.8%
15:55:26 : 08/08  0.4%
15:55:37 : 09/09  0.2%
15:55:53 : 10/10  0.1%
15:55:54 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


WAV and 3.96.1 abr 160kbps:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 15:40:28

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.96.1 abr 160.mp3

15:41:20 : Test started.
15:42:03 : 01/01  50.0%
15:42:18 : 02/02  25.0%
15:42:28 : 03/03  12.5%
15:42:38 : 04/04  6.3%
15:42:48 : 05/05  3.1%
15:43:04 : 06/06  1.6%
15:43:21 : 07/07  0.8%
15:43:33 : 08/08  0.4%
15:43:50 : 09/09  0.2%
15:44:00 : 10/10  0.1%
15:44:02 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


WAV and 3.96.1 cbr 160kbps:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 15:44:26

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.96.1 cbr 160.mp3

15:45:19 : Test started.
15:45:49 : 01/01  50.0%
15:46:00 : 02/02  25.0%
15:46:12 : 03/03  12.5%
15:46:27 : 04/04  6.3%
15:46:44 : 05/05  3.1%
15:46:55 : 06/06  1.6%
15:47:10 : 07/07  0.8%
15:47:26 : 08/08  0.4%
15:47:37 : 09/09  0.2%
15:47:54 : 10/10  0.1%
15:47:55 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #34 –
Now 3.90.3.

WAV and 3.90.3 --alt-preset medium:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 16:04:16

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.90.3 apm.mp3

16:05:10 : Test started.
16:05:40 : 01/01  50.0%
16:05:49 : 02/02  25.0%
16:05:59 : 03/03  12.5%
16:06:08 : 04/04  6.3%
16:06:18 : 05/05  3.1%
16:06:28 : 06/06  1.6%
16:06:38 : 07/07  0.8%
16:06:48 : 08/08  0.4%
16:06:59 : 09/09  0.2%
16:07:09 : 10/10  0.1%
16:07:10 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


WAV and 3.90.3 abr 160kbps:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 16:00:26

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.90.3 abr 160.mp3

16:01:18 : Test started.
16:01:45 : 01/01  50.0%
16:01:54 : 02/02  25.0%
16:02:05 : 03/03  12.5%
16:02:16 : 04/04  6.3%
16:02:28 : 05/05  3.1%
16:02:43 : 06/06  1.6%
16:02:59 : 07/07  0.8%
16:03:16 : 08/08  0.4%
16:03:26 : 09/09  0.2%
16:03:41 : 10/10  0.1%
16:03:43 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


WAV and 3.90.3 cbr 160kbps:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 15:56:33

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.90.3 cbr 160.mp3

15:57:29 : Test started.
15:58:04 : 01/01  50.0%
15:58:17 : 02/02  25.0%
15:58:27 : 03/03  12.5%
15:58:43 : 04/04  6.3%
15:58:54 : 05/05  3.1%
15:59:05 : 06/06  1.6%
15:59:21 : 07/07  0.8%
15:59:35 : 08/08  0.4%
15:59:50 : 09/09  0.2%
16:00:04 : 10/10  0.1%
16:00:06 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


And finanally, WAV and iTunes cbr 160kbps:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/15 16:07:34

File A: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\Blackwater Park\01 - The Leper Affinity.wav
File B: file://F:\Samuel's Music tests\Opeth\01 The Leper Affinity iTunes 160.mp3

16:08:27 : Test started.
16:08:51 : 01/01  50.0%
16:09:09 : 02/02  25.0%
16:09:24 : 03/03  12.5%
16:09:35 : 04/04  6.3%
16:09:47 : 05/05  3.1%
16:10:03 : 06/06  1.6%
16:10:19 : 07/07  0.8%
16:10:29 : 08/08  0.4%
16:10:44 : 09/09  0.2%
16:10:58 : 10/10  0.1%
16:10:59 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #35 –
I find that the one with the most noticeable problems are 3.90.3 preset medium, 3.97a11 -V4 and all three Lame 160kbps encodes, the three Lame 160kbps abr encodes are more or less the same with slightly better quality than the Lame cbr encodes, and the ones with the less annoying effects are 3.96.1 -V4 and iTunes cbr 160kbps.

Please do some testing yourselves and post what you think.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #36 –
This isn't interesting, is it?
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #37 –
hi skelly.  afaik, V4 (aka preset medium), even for the latest 3.97 alpha is not supposed to be indistinguishable from the original, so it should be easily ABXable.  V2 is supposed to give you transparency.

have you tried ABXing the V4 encodes against each other (i.e. 3.90.3 V4,  3.96.1 V4 and 3.97 V4 in various pairs)?

also, have you tried ABXing V4 against V4 vbr-new? i've found the HF to be a bit less annoying with V4 compared to V4 vbr-new. (i have no abx tests, sorry).
WavPack 4.31 / LAME 3.98 alpha 3 -V9 -vbr-new

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #38 –
i know -V4 is not supposed to be indistinguishable from the original, but have you heard the sample?, the whole song is metal (guitars, drums, etc.), but that one little piece with acoustic guitar and vocal is the only one i hear as having really audible differences from the original.

And yes, I have ABX'ed various of my encodes with each other, thats how i determined that all of the 3.90.3 encodes i did (160 abr, 160 cbr, apm and apfm) have the poorest sound.

Maybe next i'll encode the sample again using --vbr-new on the settings i used before just to try it out.

EDIT:

That's it, im not going to lose my head fussing over every little artifact i hear  , i have all my music in MPC -q6 for use on my computer, no wonder i heard all those artifacts after getting used to that kind of quality. So for all my mp3 purposes i'm going to use 3.90.3 --alt-preset medium, just because i see it gives a little bit more breathing room in the bit  rate spread than -V4 on the later versions, and that gives me some kind of peace of mind i guess.

Sorry for being an obsessive dumbass  .
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #39 –
Quote
Sorry for being an obsessive dumbass  .
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313986"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Don't be so hard on yourself.  Remember, you are the best judge of what sounds good to you, so just do what you feel works best for you.  Like someone here said, this is supposed to be fun, so enjoy your music collection.

regards,
kindofblue
WavPack 4.31 / LAME 3.98 alpha 3 -V9 -vbr-new

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #40 –
@skelly831:

I think it's good to see people other than Guruboolez doing some ABXing and posting the results.

Also, AFAIK, 3.90.3's ap medium wasn't originally in there. The medium preset was merged later from another version. I always used --alt-preset standard -Y with 3.90.3. Try ABXing that one! The file size should be comprable with the medium preset.

edit: added the file size thing
//From the barren lands of the Northsmen

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #41 –
I tried ABXing the Opeth sample with -V4 and LAME 3.97a11 and 3.96.1.

I first ABX'd WAV Vs 3.97a11 and acheived 10/10.
Code: [Select]
foo_abx v1.2 report
foobar2000 v0.8.3
2005/07/18 08:53:58

File A: file://C:\Documents and Settings\Paul\Desktop\opeth\Leper_sample.wav
File B: file://C:\Documents and Settings\Paul\Desktop\opeth\01 - The Leper Affinity 3.97a11 V4.mp3

08:53:58 : Test started.
09:05:21 : 01/01  50.0%
09:05:45 : 02/02  25.0%
09:06:08 : 03/03  12.5%
09:06:28 : 04/04  6.3%
09:06:39 : 05/05  3.1%
09:07:04 : 06/06  1.6%
09:08:06 : 07/07  0.8%
09:08:42 : 08/08  0.4%
09:09:04 : 09/09  0.2%
09:09:31 : 10/10  0.1%
09:09:34 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

Then I ABX'd WAV Vs 3.96.1. I could not reliably tell the difference and gave up after 4 trials.

For me, at -V4 and on this sample, 3.96.1 was superior.
daefeatures.co.uk

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #42 –
@evereux: did you use V4 --vbr-new or just plain -V4?
WavPack 4.31 / LAME 3.98 alpha 3 -V9 -vbr-new

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #43 –
Just plain -V4.
daefeatures.co.uk

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #44 –
Quote
Just plain -V4.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314292"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Interesting.Thanks.
WavPack 4.31 / LAME 3.98 alpha 3 -V9 -vbr-new

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #45 –
Hey thanks for being interested, i'll try -V2 -Y and see what happens, also i noticed that in 3.90.3, when encoding in --preset medium, the encoder reads VBR q=3 instead of 4, isn't that supposed to be like -V3?

Anyways i noticed that 3.90.3 preset medium gives on average larger filesizes than 3.97a11, and is more comparable in filesize with the results from -V4 on 3.96.1, would you guys agree with this?

EDIT:

I've encoded some files with aps -Y (3.90.3) and -V2 -Y now, i'll have to do some more ABXing to see if the quality increase over preset medium and -V4 are worth the ~2Mb file size increase.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #46 –
Quote
Hey thanks for being interested, i'll try -V2 -Y and see what happens, also i noticed that in 3.90.3, when encoding in --preset medium, the encoder reads VBR q=3 instead of 4, isn't that supposed to be like -V3?

Lame versions pre-3.94 use a different preset system, it's not directly comparable to later versions with regard to the -V value.

Quote
Anyways i noticed that 3.90.3 preset medium gives on average larger filesizes than 3.97a11, and is more comparable in filesize with the results from -V4 on 3.96.1, would you guys agree with this?

If you care for low filesize, give Lame 3.93.1 a try. I found it to be consistently lower bitrate than either 3.90.3 and 3.96.1 with --alt-preset medium. Don't know about quality, though.

Quote
I've encoded some files with aps -Y (3.90.3) and -V2 -Y now, i'll have to do some more ABXing to see if the quality increase over preset medium and -V4 are worth the ~2Mb file size increase.

Let us know your results  Also if you prefer 3.90.3 over 3.96.1...
Proverb for Paranoids: "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."
-T. Pynchon (Gravity's Rainbow)

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #47 –
OK, i'll also use 3.93.1, this version uses "--preset" and "--alt-prest" instead of "-V" right?

thanks

EDIT:

where can I find 3.93.1 (recommended download source)?
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #48 –
Quote
OK, i'll also use 3.93.1, this version uses "--preset" and "--alt-prest" instead of "-V" right?

Yes, you have to use either --alt-preset or --preset.

Quote
where can I find 3.93.1 (recommended download source)?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You can find it at rjamorim's reallyrarewares ([a href="http://www.rjamorim.com/rrw/files/lame/lame3.93.1.zip]link[/url])
Proverb for Paranoids: "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."
-T. Pynchon (Gravity's Rainbow)

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #49 –
Hmmm...  3.93.1 is not one of the recommended versions. Either 3.96.1 or 3.90.3 (or maybe the latest alpha). I haven't tried it myself, but I think you will find 3.93.1 inferior (in most cases) to the recommended versions, qualitywise.
//From the barren lands of the Northsmen