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Topic: -V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10 (Read 16438 times) previous topic - next topic
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-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Hi everybody

Until recently i have been using 3.97a10 for encoding my mp3s to -V2 for the library on my computer and hava had no problems, but scince i got a deck for my car that plays mp3 wanted to increase the albums per mp3-CD ratio so i wouldn't have to switch CDs a lot in my car.

With -V2 i can cram about 6 to 8 albums per CD and wanted a little more, so i tried -V3 and -V4 (--vbr-new on both), and noticed that the bitrates jump pretty dramaticaly from -V2 to -V3, most songs i have in -V2 are around ~230kbps, while those same songs in -V3 are ~163kbps and in -V4 are ~151kbps.

-V3 and -V4 are pretty close on most of my stuff with bitrates like the ones above, but the jump form -V2 to -V3 is pretty big dont you think, i expected something like ~190 on -V3.

I know not a lot of you use 3.97a10, or -V3 and -V4 for that matter, but thanks for your opinion!

skelly831

Edit: I listen to metal moslty, pretty noisy and constant levels through the songs, if that helps.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #1 –
Quote
Edit: I listen to metal moslty, pretty noisy and constant levels through the songs, if that helps.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310537"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's it: -V3 and -V4 use the -Y switch, which cuts most stuff beyond 16kHz that would normally cause a big bitrate bloat. Metal usually has lots of high frequency noise, so -Y can reduce the bitrate dramatically.
BTW, 230 kbps for -V2 are not normal, target is ~192. If you use -V2 -Y you will for sure also see a dramatic bitrate drop, the result will probably be not much larger than -V3.
Proverb for Paranoids: "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."
-T. Pynchon (Gravity's Rainbow)

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #2 –
230 isn't normal!?, most of my -V2 stuff is like that, for example, the last two Children of Bodom albums are around ~230, and Lamb of God's As the palaces burn is around ~240, am i doing something wrong?, for those rips i used alpha10 with "-V2 %s %d".

thanks again.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #3 –
Metal has sfb21 issues with VBR mp3.  Due to the high amount of high frequency noise which --preset standard tries to encode faithfully it bloats the bitrate a lot (search for sfb21 for more information on this).  -Y disables noise shaping I believe in the 16kHz and up subband drastically reducing the bitrate but also pretty much lowpassing at 16kHz provided that the algorithm can't encode what's above 16kHz without bloat.

I believe Dibrom once said that with -Y 80% or so of 16kHz and higher material wouldn't be encoded.
Nero AAC 1.5.1.0: -q0.45

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #4 –
Quote
Metal has sfb21 issues with VBR mp3.  Due to the high amount of high frequency noise which --preset standard tries to encode faithfully it bloats the bitrate a lot (search for sfb21 for more information on this).  -Y disables noise shaping I believe in the 16kHz and up subband drastically reducing the bitrate but also pretty much lowpassing at 16kHz provided that the algorithm can't encode what's above 16kHz without bloat.

I believe Dibrom once said that with -Y 80% or so of 16kHz and higher material wouldn't be encoded.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310543"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


For use on my computer i really dont mind large files, but if metal really has all those high frequencies, wouldnt -Y compromise quality or cause artifacts?
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #5 –
I for one have trouble discerning much above 16kHz in acutal music.  Especially louder music like metal so for me not really.  Listen and ABX some files and see if this is the case for you.
Nero AAC 1.5.1.0: -q0.45

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #6 –
While we've been discussing this, i've been doing some thest encodes with alpha10 -V2 -Y, and yes, samples that were ~230kbps before, are now ~170kbps!

this is interesting, but do -V3 and -V4 use -Y only in --vbr-new mode or always?
and for my original purpose wich sould be better, -V2 -Y or -V3 --vbr-new?, couse now they're actually very close, like dreamtactix291 said they'd be.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #7 –
Quote
While we've been discussing this, i've been doing some thest encodes with alpha10 -V2 -Y, and yes, samples that were ~230kbps before, are now ~170kbps!

this is interesting, but do -V3 and -V4 use -Y only in --vbr-new mode or always?
and for my original purpose wich sould be better, -V2 -Y or -V3 --vbr-new?, couse now they're actually very close, like dreamtactix291 said they'd be.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I did not mean that something is wrong with your high bitrates, just that with other musical genres -V2 is usually around 192 kbps, but 230 is definitely normal for metal.
Everything from -V3 on uses -Y, also in --vbr-new, but my (limited) tests (see [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34931]here[/url]) indicate that --vbr-new encodes a lot less above 16kHz than vbr-old. Whether this is relevant is dependent on your individual HF sensitivity.
Proverb for Paranoids: "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."
-T. Pynchon (Gravity's Rainbow)

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #8 –
Quote
While we've been discussing this, i've been doing some thest encodes with alpha10 -V2 -Y, and yes, samples that were ~230kbps before, are now ~170kbps!

this is interesting, but do -V3 and -V4 use -Y only in --vbr-new mode or always?
and for my original purpose wich sould be better, -V2 -Y or -V3 --vbr-new?, couse now they're actually very close, like dreamtactix291 said they'd be.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310552"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-V2 -Y seems like it'll work pretty well for you in terms of filesize.  At any rate cars are a noisy environment so I think you wouldn't notice the less HF content anyhow even if you could ABX it at your PC
Nero AAC 1.5.1.0: -q0.45

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #9 –
Thanks a lot.

If your test showed that with a10, vbr-new killed everything above 16kHz, i think my best bet is to use plain -V3, but before i do that, some listening tests have to be done by me.

Edit: by me.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #10 –
Quote
Quote
While we've been discussing this, i've been doing some thest encodes with alpha10 -V2 -Y, and yes, samples that were ~230kbps before, are now ~170kbps!

this is interesting, but do -V3 and -V4 use -Y only in --vbr-new mode or always?
and for my original purpose wich sould be better, -V2 -Y or -V3 --vbr-new?, couse now they're actually very close, like dreamtactix291 said they'd be.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310552"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-V2 -Y seems like it'll work pretty well for you in terms of filesize.  At any rate cars are a noisy environment so I think you wouldn't notice the less HF content anyhow even if you could ABX it at your PC
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310562"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Youre right, but most of my future encodes are going to end up in my PC in whatever preset i use, couse im lazy when it comes to reripping and reencoding, so loosing HF is something i would rather avoid.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #11 –
speaking of bitrates for LAME 3.97a10 V2: my average is 199kbps. highest bitrate: 242kbps, lowest 175kbps.

Anyway, the 242kbps file seems pretty interessting:

Lame 3.96.1 -V2: 263kbps
Lame 3.96.1 -V2 -Y: 263kbps
Lame 3.96.1 -V0: 298kbps
Lame 3.90.3 -V2: 224kbps
Lame 3.97 a10 -V2: 242kbps

I analysed the file with mp3Gain and the song has a volume of 92dB and is not clipping...that's suprising because usally songs need at least a 1.5dB adjustment to prevent them from clipping. That made the bitrate bloat even more mysterious and therefore I did a spectrum analysis and guess what...there doesn't seem to be anything above 10khz! Most red and orange colors are below 5khz...that is really strange...from looking at the regular graph the file does not look anything like being overcompressed either...

So there's no sfb21 bloat, no 'expensive' frequencies, no overcompression and no loudness race...

Gabriel didn't really know the answer either.

Edit: I've just uploaded a sample of the track: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=35279
--alt-presets are there for a reason! These other switches DO NOT work better than it, trust me on this.
LAME + Joint Stereo doesn't destroy 'Stereo'

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #12 –
Quote
I analysed the file with mp3Gain and the song has a volume of 92dB and is not clipping...that's suprising because usally songs need at least a 1.5dB adjustment to prevent them from clipping. That made the bitrate bloat even more mysterious and therefore I did a spectrum analysis and guess what...there doesn't seem to be anything above 10khz! Most red and orange colors are below 5khz...that is really strange...from looking at the regular graph the file does not look anything like being overcompressed either...


@Jojo
i am not 'in' MP3 at any sense, but just look on spectrum of uncompressed file. it is all under 10khz too, how compressed one can be not ?

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #13 –
Quote
@Jojo
i am not 'in' MP3 at any sense, but just look on spectrum of uncompressed file. it is all under 10khz too, how compressed one can be not ?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310672"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes you are right, but that was not my point. The reason why I noted that was, because high frequencies need a lot of bandwidth (that's why it is wise to use a lowpass filter since it would create artifacts otherwise). Anyway, now taken the fact that there's not much above 10khz makes me wonder even more why LAME chose such a high bitrate for that file. Do you get me know
--alt-presets are there for a reason! These other switches DO NOT work better than it, trust me on this.
LAME + Joint Stereo doesn't destroy 'Stereo'

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #14 –
After doing some tests yesterday and reading the last couple of posts, i decided to go with -V3 --vbr-new on 3.97a10.

I was able to ABX (to some degree of success) the original WAV and the -V4 encodes.

I was ablo to ABX (to some degree of success) the original WAV and the -V4 -vbr-new encodes.

I noticed some artifacting in the HF on both -V4 and -V4 --vbr-new, mainly cymbals, and some guitar parts that started to sound 'shhshh'y.

I was NOT able to ABX between the original WAV and the -V3 encode.

I was NOT able to ABX between the original WAV and the -V3 --vbr-new encode.

And it was a complete failure to try to ABX the -V3 and -V3 vbr-new encodes.

So, -V3 --vbr-new it is, just becouse its faster and most samples end up in the ~163kbps range, and i figure thats as low as i can go while keeping the samples transparent to me.

thanks for everyone's help!
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #15 –
Out of interest (maybe?) I transcoded my FLAC collection over the weekend to mp3 using LAME 3.97a10 '-V4 --vbr-new':

Code: [Select]
FLAC file size: ~62gb
Number of files: 2294 individual files
mp3 file size: ~8.96gb
Time: 10 1/4 hrs [with my AMD 64 3000XP 512mb RAM (166 cos it won't work at 200!!]
mp3 Avg bitrate: 144kbps
Highest bitrate: 195kbps 
[The Doors\The Best Of The Doors\02-The Doors - Light My Fire.mp3 --> Foobar displays this at 211kbps, and I don't know why]
Lowest bitrate: 33kbps 
[Cassetteboy\Cassetteboy Vs. DJ Rubbish - Inside A Whale's Cock Vol. 1\31-Cassetteboy - Cassette Boy & DJ Rubbish , 5 minutes 23.mp3 --> mostly silence, hence the low bitrate]
 & then 
77kbps [Natalie Imbruglia\Left Of The Middle\11-Natalie Imbruglia - City.mp3 --> lots of silence too].
& then
80kbps [Various Artists\Groove Armada - Another Late Night\19-Sir Patrick Moor - Peepshow.mp3 --> spoken words]
& then many in the 80s and 90s.

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #16 –
~144kbps looks like the average bitrate i get with -V4 --vbr-new, i wouldnt know about the files with really low kbps couse i dont have any spoken word or stuff like that, but i guess it works for that stuff.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #17 –
Quote
~144kbps looks like the average bitrate i get with -V4 --vbr-new, i wouldnt know about the files with really low kbps couse i dont have any spoken word or stuff like that, but i guess it works for that stuff.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I just put up the details for info really; the results are nothing too unexpected.  It's 21kbps off the target bit range of 3.96.1 (165 --> see [a href="http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=LAME#VBR_.28Variable_bitrate.29_settings]here[/url]), but I haven't seen an updated table for 3.97a10 (or 3.97) yet (I guess cos it ain't stable yet?).

What I have found odd is the bitrates reported in Foobar for a few of my files.  I know this isn't the forum for that discussion; has anyone had a similar problem or should I raise it as a Foobar issue?  When I look at the properties of the 'offending' file, as mentioned above, it shows the 'bitrate' value set to 211kbps, but in every other program I use (Mp3Tag, AudioShell, Mr QuestionMan / Audio Identifier) the bitrate is 195kbps.

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #18 –
I recently bought mp3-player(1GB)
I tried several ways to make mp3 from CD and then decided to use 3.97a10 with -V4 --vbr-new.
The points are :file size ,sound quality and encoding speed.
(I could use -V2 --vbr-new,but the file size is a little bit too large for my mp3)

Number of sample files : 82.
Lowest bitrate        : 92(4 files)
Highest bitrate        : 176
Files over 170 bitrate : 1
Files 140-170 bitrate  : 31
Files 100-140 bitrate  : 41(most of them are in 120-130 bitrate)
Files under 100 bitrate: 9 

Most of under 140 bitrate files play relatively simple music which are such like
:acoutic guitar solo,vocal with acoutic guitar,piano solo,or so
(some are loud ,some are quiet)

The target range of V4 is around 160bps though -Y option is set by default,isn't it?
It seems target range of V5.
In another words,
one should choose V3(not V2) for those under 130 bitrate files and can get better quality?
Does that make no sense,generally?

Umm...difficult to express.
Anyway ,it is not so big problem for me.
But I just wonder why?
The answer is maybe  No14 and No 15 post,now I found that  .
right?
Sorry ,I am not good at English.

thx

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #19 –
The V4 mode can also use 170k + at times, depending on the sample. I'd say anything between 130-170 is normal. I encoded several playlists using 3.97a10 V4 vbr new, AVG bitrate is 150k.

You could go up to V3 if you don't mind 10% increase in filesize. For a portable with limited space 10% maybe too much.

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #20 –
Thanks.
Yes,I can understand what you mean.

------
Lowest bitrate : 92(4 files)
Highest bitrate : 176
------

The both sourses are in the same album.
In that album,the sources which go into higher bitrate contain the bass play and the lower do not.
Other conoditions don't seem so different between them.
(vocal with acostic guitar or piano)

I just bagan to study mp3-endoding,and so I wonder why the encoder don't satisfy enough the capacity of the target bitrate.
(ex.in case V4 is selected, at least upper 130kbps in stead of 92bps)

thanks again.

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #21 –
Quote
I just bagan to study mp3-endoding,and so I wonder why the encoder don't satisfy enough the capacity of the target bitrate.

Because vbr is not targetting any bitrate but a quality level. The goal is to have constant quality, whatever the bitrate.

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #22 –
Quote
Quote
I just bagan to study mp3-endoding,and so I wonder why the encoder don't satisfy enough the capacity of the target bitrate.

Because vbr is not targetting any bitrate but a quality level. The goal is to have constant quality, whatever the bitrate.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311363"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Oh,I see.

thanks

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #23 –
I've been encoding some files at --alt-preset medium (NOT fast medium), with the modified 3.90.3, and found that it produces results that are very similar to -V4 --vbr-new in both 3.96.1 and 3.97a10.

In fact 3.96.1 and 3.97a10 produce almost identical filesizes and histograms with -V4 --vbr-new, while 3.90.3 produces very similar histograms but file sizes are a little larger due to a slight use of 224 and 320kbps (i saw this in EncSpot's histograms of the test files).

Does 3.90.3 use the -Y switch also as default for preset medium?

I find 3.90.3's preset medium to be a nice middle ground between 3.96.1's and 3.97a10's -V4 --vbr-new and -V3 --vbr-new modes (not using --vbr-new in 3.96.1 and a10 produces different bit rate spreads that are not similar to 3.90.3's preset medium, i find this weird, that using the new vbr mode in 3.96.1 and a10 produces bit rate spreads very similar to 3.90.3's alt preset medium, wich uses the old vbr mode).

I decided not to use fast medium because its well known that the new vbr method produces slighlty better results only in newer releases. although 3.90.3 is painfully slow i stuck with the normal preset medium setting.

The produced  bitrates are around ~157kbps, again i'm using mostly metal type music for the tests. I've not done any listening tests, i will once i encode some more files.

EDIT: After doing some more encodes i found that 3.90.3 gives a little bit more breathing room in the bit rate spread, for example: encoding OSI's Memory Daydreams Lapses, 3.96.1 and a10 gave nearly identical filesizes of 6.97 and 6.98Mb respectiveley and bit rate spreads at an average bit rate of 164kbps on both files, while 3.90.3 gave a filesize of 7.47Mb and an average bit rate of 176kbps.
we was young an' full of beans

-V3 and -V4 in 3.97a10

Reply #24 –
@skelly831:  Do you find your 3.90.3 preset medium encodes have any HF artifacts (eg smeary cymbals and some guitar parts) like the ones you noticed in 3.96.1 and 3.97a V4? Earlier you said you were going to use -V3 --vbr-new.  What made you go back to V4? Just curious. I've been using 3.97 aps, but I've been thinking of stepping back to V3 or V4 for space considerations. I've noticed some HF smearing in V4 vbr-new too, so I have doubts about using it. Havent ABXed anything yet though.
WavPack 4.31 / LAME 3.98 alpha 3 -V9 -vbr-new