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Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #25
The Ogg Vorbis QT plugin is broken with QT7.  I released a patch to stop the plugin from crashing whenever an Ogg Vorbis file was played.  It is located here: http://forum.phucknut.net/index.php?showtopic=420

However, it just outputs silence atm.  I think it's totally borked, and thats why a new implementation as a CoreAudio codec is needed

Thanks

Jan

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #26
Well, there's Whamb that does Vorbis files and streams, but it doesn't support many other formats.
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Whamb is a Digital Audio Player for Mac OS X. For now, it supports Audio CDs, MP3 and Ogg Vorbis files and Internet streams.
"ONLY THOSE WHO ATTEMPT THE IMPOSSIBLE WILL ACHIEVE THE ABSURD"
        - Oceania Association of Autonomous Astronauts

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #27
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Yup. iTunes is good for music organizing/playback, but ripping is its major weak point right now.

If someone made an EAC-like app for OSX it would become incredibly popular.
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Agreed 100%.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #28
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Ogg Vorbis support has been out there for a long time via a Quicktime plug-in that somebody/some people made. Not sure if it still works with QT7 and Tiger, but it was out there.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=305544"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, it does not anymore. I am still running iTunes4.7 with QT6.5.2, so I can listen to my beloved Ogg's with that plugin.

Well, I've been using a MacMini for 5 weeks or so, and the only thing I miss from my old W2K is foobar.
Sooo... keep going and make me happy, lad! 

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #29
Quick update:

About ripping -- I'm not going to be focusing on this, at least initially.  I'm not as interested in coding something like this as I am a general audio player.  I personally think the need to playback more formats than itunes is capable, and with far greater flexibility to boot, of is more important right now than secure ripping, especially when secure ripping is already possible even if not as easily or as nicely as EAC does it.  Of course, people are free to disagree, but they can take up the coding for that project if they like

About euphonos -- As I'd mentioned in the Spotlight Importer thread, I was going to wait awhile to release another update to polish things up.  Well, it's going to be longer than a few days now.  The metadata libraries I was using before just ended up being too inflexible and non-idiomatic for my tastes, so I've started writing my own from scratch in Cocoa.

The new metadata library uses the io code from Euphonos now, which is pretty general and 100% stream based rather than file based.  This means that it'll be possible to reuse the metadata library for efficiently reading metadata off streamed files, files on a filesystem, or files in any arbitrary container format for which a reader is provided (.zip for instance).

The readers are provided in the form of descriptors which are sent bytes from the io controller, and in turn respond with messages telling the io controller what to do next.  Eventually this process leads to a complete media resource description (properties and metadata), which is available for use for other purposes (playback, population of metadata fields in other applications, editing and rewriting, etc.).

The descriptors are implemented as either generic media resource descriptions (playlists, etc.), generic container format descriptions, or codec descriptions, and understand which fields to read from a stream (byte locations, types, etc.) and associated actions to perform upon encountering these.  Some descriptors can invoke others for flexibility in dealing with complex nested media types.

This basically allows for decoupling of container and codec so that things like Ogg Flac or arbitrary formats embedded in MP4 or Matroska are handled easily.  Supporting Ogg properly was something that was not very pretty through the previous spotlight importer (it was working eventually but required hacks), and one of the reasons I decided to write my own library from scratch.

Since the descriptors are kept apart from the decoders, it should be easy to add support for reading properties and metadata tags from formats for which decoders do not exist yet (essentially what I was doing with the spotlight importer already -- this will just allow me to do it easier) or do not apply (playlists, etc.), but for which the container format, bitstream, or general layout is well known and documented.  It also allows for cleaner decoder implementations that don't have to be cluttered with other io tasks.

This is just a really rough overview of how things are shaping up right now.  Things are a little more complex in code of course and don't work quite exactly how I explained them, but it's close enough .  What this means feature-wise is that:

- Reading from and writing to arbitrary locations and media types will be possible through streams and descriptors.  This includes easy network streaming, casting, format conversion, etc.
- Generic container formats will be supported from the beginning as a design decision rather than an afterthought which requires hacks and massive redesigns.
- The metadata library for euphonos should be easily reusable in other cocoa projects, which should hopefully help to improve the quality of other audio tools on os x.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #30
Have you considered implimenting some of the foobar SDK in order to make porting plugins easier?  Obviously things like GUI plugins would be useless, but DSPs/decoders/ipod/tagging might be much easier to develope if foobar's plugin's could be used as a starting point.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #31
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Have you considered implimenting some of the foobar SDK in order to make porting plugins easier?  Obviously things like GUI plugins would be useless, but DSPs/decoders/ipod/tagging might be much easier to develope if foobar's plugin's could be used as a starting point.
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I thought briefly about trying to copy some of the SDK stuff early on, but it wouldn't work well for a few reasons.  The biggest reason is that I'm using Objective-C and Cocoa, and Peter is using C++ and win32 API's.  The two are just so different that this sort of thing wouldn't work.  You can use something called Objective-C++ which lets you mix syntax from both languages, but it's kind of messy and I think would promote poor design overall, and it wouldn't solve the API problem, only the language one.  (This isn't to say that people can't write plugins for Euphonos unless they use Objective-C by the way, it just means that the code at the plugin layer will either need to be written in Objective-C, or will need to make use of Core Foundation and the "toll-free bridged" C counterparts for Foundation classes).

Most of the underlaying player structure is ending up different enough from the way foobar2000 works (as far as I understand) to where even some of the design ideas probably wouldn't translate across as well, if the language and API issues weren't a problem.

However, for most well coded plugins, if the underlying parts (the bits not reliant on the fb2k api) are cross-platform and well designed, it shouldn't be that hard to translate them over.  I do plan to probably make use of some of the code from fb2k DSP plugins and other things (where source is available and makes sense to use) that I am able to, although I will have to recode the plugin layer.

Once x86 Mac's start popping up, it might be possible to write an interface that would allow certain foobar2000 plugin binaries to be used with Euphonos, but I wouldn't count on this being a very practical feature in any case.

What I guess I'm betting my hopes on as far as getting people to make plugins and other extensions is that Euphonos will provide a clean, well documented, and easy to use API that will make writing these things quick and pleasant.  Of course, who knows if that's how it will work out, but I think it's the best option.  There seems to be interest from people in having this sort of media player "platform," but so far nothing for it on the Mac quite exists yet.  Hopefully these same people will take advantage of it when it does arrive.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #32
Sounds extremely well thought out, so far. Can't wait to hear more news!

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #33
You probably aren't really taking feature requests, but i thought I'd throw this out there.  It's an idea that I've had toying around my head for a while now.  It may be beyond the scope of the application your trying to develop, but I don't have time to even think about trying to build something like this now, and I don't have the skill.

Anyway...

Basically the concept is a client/server music system.  All the music is stored in one central location, accessed only by the server.  I haven't worked out all the specifics in my head yet (eg. does the server stream to the client?  Does it stream decoded or undecoded data? Does it just send the location of the file?).

The advantage to using a client/server system is all in databases and tagging.  By having one central location for all the music, real playback statistics can be gathered, and then stored in a database (and not in the files tags).  If you use file tags to store playback statistics, you can have all your music in a central location and have communial playback statistics.  But, for example in foobar, where you have each client with it's own database, playback statistics that only get stored in the database won't work (because there only stored by the client).  If the server were to stream data to the client, it also would not require the client to have any file permissions on the server, only that the client/server can commuincate using TCP/IP on a specific port.  This way, even network users with very limited access could listen to the music stored on the server, as long as they had the client installed.

Like I said, I've only really kicked this idea around in my head briefly.  I realise it's a lot more work to do it this way.  I don't have a Mac, so I'm not asking you to consider doing this for my benefit.  It's just something I thought I'd post for you to think about.  There are probably other advantages to using a client/server system that I haven't thought of, and some disadvantages.  Something to mull over.

[Offtopic]
On the subject of Macs, if there was a program on Mac that offered the same functionailty as foobar2000, I'd switch to Mac.  iTunes just isn't good enough, but my Windows apps aren't poor enough to justify switching.  foobar2000 is essentially the only thing holding me back.

A question, what IDE's are available on Mac for Objective-C, or other C Style Languages?  Basically is there a Visual Studio type IDE for Mac?

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #34
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You probably aren't really taking feature requests, but i thought I'd throw this out there.  It's an idea that I've had toying around my head for a while now.

...


It actually wouldn't be very hard to do what you're talking about.  I've thought a little bit about distributed playback and stuff kind of like that already, and most of it should be possible.  The IO is already stream based, and most of the other parts could deal with network distribution and communication just fine.  I probably wouldn't support this sort of playback model as the primary mode of use, but I don't see why it shouldn't be quite easily doable with a plugin.

As far as playback statistics are concerned, Euphonos already has an internal database apart from the metadata of individual files, similar to how foobar2000 works.  Statistics on all sorts of things could be stored there without ever touching the actual files themselves.  Only limited amounts of information added to the database will ever be written back out to the files (mostly user tags that map directly to a given tag for whatever tagging format the file supports).

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[Offtopic]
A question, what IDE's are available on Mac for Objective-C, or other C Style Languages?  Basically is there a Visual Studio type IDE for Mac?
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There is [a href="http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/xcode/]XCode[/url] which is very, very good IMO.  I like it quite a bit better than Visual Studio.  It offers pretty much everything you would expect from an industrial grade IDE, such as syntax highlighting, code completion, user specifiable hierarchical groupings (classes, symbols, errors, files, along with smart filters, etc.), probably the best WYSIWYG user interface construction system every created (Interface builder, harkening back to the NeXT days), visual data modeling, a debugger in the form of gdm (along with fix and continue -- a form of debugging where you can modify running code and watch the change in realtime), very advanced and capable build systems which are able to manage practically every scenario you can think of, even complex scripted builds, revision management, distributed builds, etc., etc., etc.

The user interface for xcode is very non-intrusive and quite intuitive.  You can use it pretty minimally or dig quite deep into the system to exploit a lot of power, but either way it remains very usable.

Oh, and it's free with OS X.

But that's just the IDE.  You also get some incredibly powerful profiling tools with CHUD on OS X for free too.  They let you do things like run cycle accurate models of the cpu to profile code down at the instruction level, or examine profiled output in C and asm along with platform specific optimization tips in Shark (tells you about cpu stalls, non-byte aligned loops or functions, opportunities for vectorization, LSU rejects, opportunities for invariant removal, etc.).  You can see some shark examples here and here.

Hope that answers your question.  I'm always a bit amazed at the Apple dev tools.. they're probably the highest quality I've ever used or seen, for pretty much any price, and they're free.  They have some excellent high performance vector libraries too if you're into that kinda stuff (their fft (vDSP) is amongst the fastest around -- quite a bit faster than fftw, and certainly faster than any other free implementation).

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #35
Well when you release version of this program that offers even half the features of foobar2000, you'll have brought a new Mac user to the clan, because I will be switching.

With these apps being free, I'm surprised there isn't more mac software.  I know the install base is relatively small, but these tools are impresive (at least they look impresive).

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #36
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Basically the concept is a client/server music system.  All the music is stored in one central location, accessed only by the server.
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sounds kind of like slimserver (runs on OS X, linux, windows).

Josh

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #37
Well the basic idea is certainly like SlimServer.  Seeing as it's a commercial product (as far as I can tell) I don't know a whole lot about it.  The key to my idea is really the database information.  It's all fine and good that you have all this information about your file, but we should be looking for powerful ways to exploit it.  You could keep playback statistics for every person who used the system.  What songs they played, what time of day they played them.  I know, I know, I could sell this information on to marketing agents  .

But in all seriousness, we should be so far beyond the very limited number of uses we have for this data.  The two coolest things I've seen done of late are Audioscobbler (so not that recently) and the 'hotness' experiment for foobar.  If more people can think outside the box like this, and exploit the vast amount of data we can collect, we can really start to see some cool applications.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #38
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Well the basic idea is certainly like SlimServer.  Seeing as it's a commercial product (as far as I can tell) I don't know a whole lot about it.

slimserver is open source.  it is officially supported by slim devices I think only for their hardware but there are also software clients out there.

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The key to my idea is really the database information.  It's all fine and good that you have all this information about your file, but we should be looking for powerful ways to exploit it.

totally agree.  there has been very little foray outside of what is possible with id3v1 because it is the lowest common denominator and works acceptably for pop.  anything more advanced becomes a big undertaking because of widely varying user demands.  at the time I started FLAC I also had plans for such a thing (and a few other related projects) but I just don't have time.  I ended up rolling my own system for what I need.  when I get the time I want to try bridging it to slimserver via their plugin architecture as the squeezebox is a very neat device.

Josh

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #39
As someone who switched from Windows back to Mac OS a year and a half ago I can say the only thing I miss about my PC is Exact Audio Copy and Foobar2000 along with single FLAC files+CUE sheets. I'm looking forward to the first beta release of this. My only suggestion is the ability to have Foobar-like formatting strings. That would rule. I really like the Spotlight metadata idea too. Anyhow good work, just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of Mac users who appreciate this undertaking.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #40
This would be great. With Whamb, Macamp Lite X, Audion, etc. out of the picture (and XMMS never particularly well implemented), this is very much welcome news. Looking forward to updates as you progress.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #41
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Well when you release version of this program that offers even half the features of foobar2000, you'll have brought a new Mac user to the clan, because I will be switching.

With these apps being free, I'm surprised there isn't more mac software.  I know the install base is relatively small, but these tools are impresive (at least they look impresive).
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Same thing here! I want get off Windows forever. My next computer will be a Mac.

Offtopic, but I wonder if we'll see people running OSX illegally on Intel via stolen bios.
Nah, probably not, except for China maybe.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #42
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As someone who switched from Windows back to Mac OS a year and a half ago I can say the only thing I miss about my PC is Exact Audio Copy and Foobar2000 along with single FLAC files+CUE sheets. I'm looking forward to the first beta release of this. My only suggestion is the ability to have Foobar-like formatting strings. That would rule. I really like the Spotlight metadata idea too. Anyhow good work, just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of Mac users who appreciate this undertaking.
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Thanks

The foobar2000 like formatting strings will basically be accomplished through string manipulation with javascript, at least for everything not practically accomplished with XSL.  Since javascript is a full blown programming language, it wouldn't be very difficult for someone to provide a set of convenience functions mapping the general functionality of TAGZ in foobar2000.  I will probably provide some sort of guide to get people started with this kind of thing.

At any rate, a whole lot of things have changed under the hood since I first announced this thing, but they're also changing so fast that I should probably wait until everything settles down a bit more before going into detail.  But concerning playlist formatting, there's some very, very cool new stuff that's going to go into the player that will be unlike anything most people have seen before

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #43
I greatly look forward to releases of this project . I've come to enjoy iTunes quite a bit, but i'd be lying if I said that I didn't miss the simplicity (and scalability) of a player like foobar.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #44
Dibrom, I have a short question regarding Euphonos:
* Do you have plans, or already implemented AirTunes support?

This would be a killer feature for me, since I stream to my AirPort Express 95% of the time. Currently iTunes is the only audio player with this feature.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #45
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Dibrom, I have a short question regarding Euphonos:
* Do you have plans, or already implemented AirTunes support?

This would be a killer feature for me, since I stream to my AirPort Express 95% of the time. Currently iTunes is the only audio player with this feature.
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Even if it isn't implemented directly you could use an app like [a href="http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/26038]AirFoil[/url]

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #46
Bringing XML/XSLT/JavaScript/XHTML into the picture is a brilliant approach to customization of playlists. I'm guessing if this thing works out you'll be an early adopted to an approach many will mimick.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #47
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Dibrom, I have a short question regarding Euphonos:
* Do you have plans, or already implemented AirTunes support?

This would be a killer feature for me, since I stream to my AirPort Express 95% of the time. Currently iTunes is the only audio player with this feature.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=313857"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No plans for that yet.  I'm still hammering out low level design details so I haven't gotten around to higher level features like that.  It is something I would like to support though, and will probably do so if I can.

If I were to support this, it would probably be in the form of a dsp plugin.  All other audio outputs are currently handled in this way.  The DSP system in Euphonos now makes use of AudioUnits.  AudioUnits are similar to VST plugins, except they make direct use of coreaudio and are more powerful overall.  Many of the applications like Logic and the like are using audiounits now for example.

So the same with any other audiounit, if someone were to make one that supported sending data to the airport express (maybe someone already has?), Euphonos could make use of it with no further modification necessary.

It shouldn't be hard at all to make an audiounit for this.  There already exist ones for streaming audio between two computers remotely for example, as well as units that send output to various different hardware devices.

So someone else could add support to Euphonos for this if they wanted, but if nobody else does, perhaps I will do it myself when I get far enough along to start focusing on those type of features.

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #48
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Bringing XML/XSLT/JavaScript/XHTML into the picture is a brilliant approach to customization of playlists. I'm guessing if this thing works out you'll be an early adopted to an approach many will mimick.
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Yeah, I think this will work out pretty well.  But the thing I'm working on now for playlist customization (which will be usable in conjunction with the XSLT stuff) is even better  I'll give more details about it when I'm further along with it, but it's based on some really cool new stuff that came with 10.4..

Euphonos - Mac OS X audio player project

Reply #49
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Dibrom, I have a short question regarding Euphonos:
* Do you have plans, or already implemented AirTunes support?

No plans for that yet.  I'm still hammering out low level design details so I haven't gotten around to higher level features like that.  It is something I would like to support though, and will probably do so if I can.

Thanks a lot for the detailed reply.
Since I'm no programmer myself, I had no idea it this was a low or higher level feature. But I know now!

Cant wait to get my hands on this player when its ready for testing.
Keep on coding... 

 
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