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Topic: Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600 (Read 15413 times) previous topic - next topic
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Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #25



I probably associate the "lack of treble" with the weak hi-mid response between 2k and 4k, and the dramatic dip around 8k. After 10k it gets better but that's more presence than treble to me.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #26
Quote



I probably associate the "lack of treble" with the weak hi-mid response between 2k and 4k, and the dramatic dip around 8k. After 10k it gets better but that's more presence than treble to me.

Before comparing frequency responses it is useful to normalize it to the same sensitivity. DIN 45500 uses the averaged frequency response between 250 Hz
and 4 kHz for that.

See differences in FR:
http://www.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?...pare+Headphones
--  Frank Klemm

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #27
Those graphs can't be used as an exact reference of the headphones response, because they include the ear and ear canal frequency response (~HRTF) , which affect quite heavily the measured total response.

HRTF (includes also head response) in the horizontal plane:



As seen, the 10 KHz dip, also present in the headphones response, is very likely to be due to the ear response, not the headphones.

To extract a more meaningful information from the measured headphones frequency responses, they should be compared, or plotted relatively, to the response measured in the same way (inside of an manikin ear) of a flat frequency response source (speaker) in free field, standing in front of the manikin.

Even in that case, the ear and ear canal response varies for every person, so ideally both measurements (headphone and flat response speaker) should be done inside every person's ear to measure headphone response for them.

More info on HRTF's at http://interface.cipic.ucdavis.edu/CIL_tut...RTF/3D_HRTF.htm

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #28
Quote
As seen, the 10 KHz dip, also present in the headphones response, is very likely to be due to the ear response, not the headphones.

I see no dip at 10kHz (in the headphone response), but one at approx. 8kHz, where the HRTF-graphs shows a peak. The respective dips and peaks at 8kHz and 10kHz seem to cancel each other neatly.

I was under the the impression that HRTFs were used to create a more out-of-the-ear sound and only model the head and outer ear response, which you essientely bypass when using headphones?

To Frank: I saw the normalized responses as well, but I prefer the extra sensitivity information. BTW, to what level are the plots normalized?

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #29
Quote
Quote
As seen, the 10 KHz dip, also present in the headphones response, is very likely to be due to the ear response, not the headphones.

I see no dip at 10kHz (in the headphone response), but one at approx. 8kHz, where the HRTF-graphs shows a peak. The respective dips and peaks at 8kHz and 10kHz seem to cancel each other neatly.

I was under the the impression that HRTFs were used to create a more out-of-the-ear sound and only model the head and outer ear response, which you essientely bypass when using headphones?

To Frank: I saw the normalized responses as well, but I prefer the extra sensitivity information. BTW, to what level are the plots normalized?

The average between 250 Hz and 4 kHz.
This is +13 dB for the Sennheiser and + 1dB for the DT-990.
--  Frank Klemm

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #30
Quote
Those graphs can't be used as an exact reference of the headphones response, because they include the ear and ear canal frequency response (~HRTF) , which affect quite heavily the measured total response.

HRTF (includes also head response) in the horizontal plane:



As seen, the 10 KHz dip, also present in the headphones response, is very likely to be due to the ear response, not the headphones.

To extract a more meaningful information from the measured headphones frequency responses, they should be compared, or plotted relatively, to the response measured in the same way (inside of an manikin ear) of a flat frequency response source (speaker) in free field, standing in front of the manikin.

Even in that case, the ear and ear canal response varies for every person, so ideally both measurements (headphone and flat response speaker) should be done inside every person's ear to measure headphone response for them.

More info on HRTF's at http://interface.cipic.ucdavis.edu/CIL_tut...RTF/3D_HRTF.htm

- HRTF is uninteresting. You only need the Outer Ear transfer function.
- Outer ear transfer function is more flat.
- typically measurements are compared with average of all direction, the diffuse
field reference because typical listening enviroments produce >75% diffuse field.
--  Frank Klemm

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #31
Quote
Before comparing frequency responses it is useful to normalize it to the same sensitivity. DIN 45500 uses the averaged frequency response between 250 Hz
and 4 kHz for that.

See differences in FR:
http://www.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?...pare+Headphones

I don't know what you're talking about (can you explain?  ), but whatever it is, that graph probably isn't it. See http://headphone.com/layout.php?topicID=10...&subTopicID=122 for an explanation for what they mean by 'normalized'.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #32
Quote
From Frank Klemm

HRTF is uninteresting. You only need the Outer Ear transfer function.

Depending on how you do the measurements, I'd say you would need also the inner ear canal response... But I guess that's not how it is done usually.

Also, I said 'ear and ear canal resonance (~HRTF)'. '~' means 'similar', so it's something like "similar to HRTF". HRTF includes also head and body effect.

Quote
- Outer ear transfer function is more flat..

I suppose so, but the big dips and peaks are due to this outer ear response.

Quote
- typically measurements are compared with average of all direction, the diffuse
field reference because typical listening enviroments produce >75% diffuse field.


That's interesting... However, ideal listening environment would be 0 diffusse field (free field), or recording studio diffuse field?? I'd say the later, yes.

I'd say ideal recording and listening would be a proper binaural record listened with proper matched headphones.


edit: fixed quotes

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #33
Quote
From petracci

I see no dip at 10kHz (in the headphone response), but one at approx. 8kHz, where the HRTF-graphs shows a peak.


I'd say that the dip is at 8 KHz in headphones due to a slightly different ear in the manikin used.

Quote
I was under the the impression that HRTFs were used to create a more out-of-the-ear sound and only model the head and outer ear response, which you essientely bypass when using headphones?


Yes, but I'd say that the headphones measurements shown here are quite affected from ear response (similar to HRTF), so it shoud be taken into account and removed.

Edit:Citay, thanks for the quote edits, I don't use them very well yet.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #34
They might be affected by the HRTF, but it's the same HRTF (Fritz's) for all headphones, so you can still compare them.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #35
Quote
They might be affected by the HRTF, but it's the same HRTF (Fritz's) for all headphones, so you can still compare them.

Yes, but they can't be used to extract absolute information from a headphone. They are mostly useful to extract relative information comparing headphones, as you say.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #36
That's what I'll use them for, then 

That still leaves the problem of me and Mr. Klemm having different views on the HD580 and DT990. Anybody else has experience with these two?

PS. If we're stealing Garf's thread here, please let us start a new one (AYAHT)

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #37
well, I own a Sony MDR-CD480 (big cups) and can compare it to a Sennheiser HD-575. What can I say... the Sony's are by far superior (using a SB Live). The Sennheiser's seem to need an aditional amp (not loud and there is no bass, by using a radio as amp its clear that it IS possible to get good sound out of it... not with this particular radio tho). The Sony takes much less power, in fact it is quite a bit louder than the earphones supplied with the iRiver ChromeX..., having a good deal of bass (IF you want it... it really depends on your eq settings) and good trebs while sounding pretty flat to me if you want, or sounding good (again if you want). They are very comfortable (adjustable headband etc.) and not as hot as leather cushions... price was $70-75 last time, but they went out of production (I think you should be able to find one tho). Cable length is 3m, with a 5m cable with volume control optional (but these cables are a bit more expensive (tho I think the 5m is cheaper than the 3m one), you can plug out the cable of the headphone if you want. It's pretty robust too and can be used for mobile players (low output should still be enough...), allthough I must admit that they WILL make you look different on the street  (ehm... huge)

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #38
Does anyone have experience with the HD280 Pro? They also fall in my price range, and I'm curious about whether they're comfortable for wearing for a long time. (Experiences with sound quality also appreciated) The fact that they're noiseproof has advantages for me, but it's not essential.

I have the same question about the HD497. Comfortable after long use? How does the quality compare to the expensive top models, is it a big difference?

What's the normal price for a HD580 in Europe? I had a funny experience going into a very very expensive looking audiophile store in, eh, leisure clothing, to be greeted by a salesdroid in full suit. They had 3 pairs of headphones, but one of them was the HD580 (doesn't seem to be present in other stores here). When I asked the price, he went looking in the catalogue. And kept looking. And kept looking. Finally he came back red as a tomato: 'sorry sir, I, eh, can't find it'. He suspected them to be around 150-175 Euros.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #39
I have the Senn 280. They have a higher sound pressure level than the 580's and have  a lower impededance (65 ohm), making them easier to drive. The isolation is not complete, but I guess it's nearly the best you can get with circumaural HIFI headphones (Better than anything I heard). They have a greater contact pressure (on the head) than the 580's, but they are still quite comfortable; more than Sony (IMHO) and most other closed phones. I can wear them for hours, though your ears could get hot with the leather cushions. (There seems to be a problem with the pressure on top of the head: One user complained at headwize.com, but solved the problem with stretching/pressing them in shape.)
They are foldable, but will stay quite large compared to some Sonys.

The sound quality is slightly inferior to the 580 (surprise), but still excellent for closed phones. Most notably the bass is weaker (unusual), and I have the impression that they are very susceptible to noise -- at least I could abx some noise differences with the 280's very easily (maybe it's just the isolation from computer noise).

I think both phones are excellent for their individual purposes: The 280's offer great isolation with very good sound, while the 580's offer superb sound with high comfort.

I bought the 580 something like three years ago, price was about 145 Euro (which was rather cheap, I think they are more expensive now). The 280 in June, price was 120 Euro.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #40
I have the Sennheiser 590, they are great, BUT the main reason I got them is the low power usage compared to the 600's. I would much prefer the 600's of course, but since I use the 590's 90% of the time for a portable player/office work, they are just fine.

So I suggest only get the 590's if you are looking to use it constantly in a portable device, or something that uses batteries. Otherwise, just concentrate on 580 or 600.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #41
Quote
What's the normal price for a HD580 in Europe

They costed me around 240 € here in Spain a few months ago.

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #42
Quote
Quote
What's the normal price for a HD580 in Europe

They costed me around 240 € here in Spain a few months ago.

That's way too much. If you're ok with postorder from UK, then this seems like a good price. Around 120€.

http://www.unbeatable.co.uk/product_main.a....asp?sku=311588

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #43
Quote
What's the normal price for a HD580 in Europe? I had a funny experience going into a very very expensive looking audiophile store in, eh, leisure clothing, to be greeted by a salesdroid in full suit. They had 3 pairs of headphones, but one of them was the HD580 (doesn't seem to be present in other stores here). When I asked the price, he went looking in the catalogue. And kept looking. And kept looking. Finally he came back red as a tomato: 'sorry sir, I, eh, can't find it'. He suspected them to be around 150-175 Euros.



 

Sennheiser Hd570 Vs Hd590 Vs Hd600

Reply #44
I got a good deal on the HD580, so I went for it.

They are *LOUDER* than the HD570 when connected to the SB128. It powers them easily to high volume levels.

First impression is that the highs are more balanced, the overall sound is much more pronounced, and the bass is tighter (there seems to be less of it as well).

 
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