'listening Fatigue'

Topic: 'listening Fatigue' (Read 31930 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #25 – 2002-09-02 08:01:07

Quote

Hehehe a little too psychological - placebo ... hehehe get it??

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #26 – 2002-09-02 19:39:23

I'm listening for hours to a lot of Ogg files on headphones... I don't suffer under listening fatigue... Only under eye fatigue due my monitor

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #27 – 2002-09-03 01:10:40

listening to mp3s encoded with my self-made highly sophisticated command line -h -k -m s -v -V [2|0] (0 for CDs, 2 for radio recordings) (I'll call it lameline) gives me The Warm Fuzzy Feeling .

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #28 – 2002-09-03 01:47:30

Quote

I'm listening for hours to a lot of Ogg files on headphones... I don't suffer under listening fatigue... Only under eye fatigue due my monitor

More like radiation poisoning.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #29 – 2002-09-08 00:04:23

the sound transmitted to the ears by mean of electric charges ,goes through neural fibers and reach a region on side of the brain (left and right "parietal")
it is analyzed then by the brain to give you the "hearing"
the vitamine b1 and b6 and others enhance the electric impulsions that is trasmitted to the brain.(speed)
these vitamines are found in lemon, mostly (natural pressed and soon drinked)
the body does'n need too much of these because it makes a "stock" of it in the liver, you just have to take it for few days 3 or 4 (the needs are fed up to 3 to 4 month)
sorry if this reply might sound too "medical"

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #30 – 2002-09-08 00:13:55

In the next group listening test we should require the contestants to drink freshly pressed lemon juice for a week before taking the test.
Seriously, to what degree will that affect one's hearing? I imagine the effect to be very very small, but I know very little about such things. What do you mean by "the needs are fed up to 3 to 4 month"?

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #31 – 2002-09-08 01:37:42

Quote

listening to mp3s encoded with my self-made highly sophisticated command line -h -k -m s -v -V [2|0] (0 for CDs, 2 for radio recordings) (I'll call it lameline) gives me The Warm Fuzzy Feeling ™.

Yes, who on this earth disables all filters? and uses only stereo frames at the same time?

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #32 – 2002-09-08 01:57:21

someone who does not know much about:
- Lame switches (esp. q)
- audio coding and noise

ah whatever. *pets mpc --standard*

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #33 – 2002-09-10 07:36:17

Quote

In the next group listening test we should require the contestants to drink freshly pressed lemon juice for a week before taking the test.
Seriously, to what degree will that affect one's hearing? I imagine the effect to be very very small, but I know very little about such things. What do you mean by "the needs are fed up to 3 to 4 month"?

you have enough of these vitamins for near 3 months even if you dont eat food containing it

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #34 – 2002-10-29 11:09:09

Thread not dead yet :)

I did not reply until now, because I thought the idea was crazy. I have encoded around 600 albums in Ogg Vorbis q9 and I cannot ABX it. It is highly possible that I cannot ABX a much lower quality either - but this is beside the point.

I actually have a "listening log" for the past year (since I started using Ogg Vorbis). I needed to listen to all albums to check for ripping errors (my old Plextor drive was slightly broken). So I wrote "OK" beside all albums without errors. I rarely listened to an "OK" album more than once. It has taken me a whole year to listen to some 600-800 cds -- 2-3 per day.

Since 1992 I have been listening to 6-14 hours of music every day. It is quite obvious that I am listening to much less music now than earlier. I find myself sitting in silence (or the computer fan) quite often.

I spoke to a friend of mine. We started using Vorbis q9 around the same time. He has experienced the same thing -- enjoying silence.

So I am proposing an experiment: Listen only to lossless music for the next month and see what happens. Does anyone want to participate?

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #35 – 2002-10-30 00:08:42

Quote

Since 1992 I have been listening to 6-14 hours of music every day. It is quite obvious that I am listening to much less music now than earlier. I find myself sitting in silence (or the computer fan) quite often.

I spoke to a friend of mine. We started using Vorbis q9 around the same time. He has experienced the same thing -- enjoying silence.

So I am proposing an experiment: Listen only to lossless music for the next month and see what happens. Does anyone want to participate?

That's exactly what I was thinking. The listening fatigue occurs not because you are listening to ogg, mp3 or whatever, but simply because you are listening to music. I listen to a lot of audio CDs every day and usualy get tired of it after few hours. Then I turn it of and just enjoy the silence.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #36 – 2002-10-30 00:28:55

>>The listening fatigue occurs not because you are listening to ogg, mp3 or whatever

...and probably at high volume levels

Well said....(Ann & Gam).....right to the point with the REAL reason

Xenno

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #37 – 2002-10-30 02:04:24

Quote

>>The listening fatigue occurs not because you are listening to ogg, mp3 or whatever

...and probably at high volume levels

Well said....(Ann & Gam).....right to the point with the REAL reason

Try not to confuse others with yourself.
I do personally not listen to high volume levels.

My problem: Having "endured" nine years of at least six hours of music per day, I turn to my computer and Ogg Vorbis for one year and suddenly cannot take it anymore.

There might be other reasons like getting older and senile. That is why I am proposing and undertaking a four week lossless-only experiment. Participation is completely voluntary. However; participating can prove that your superior reasoning is more than ill-conceived preconception.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #38 – 2002-10-30 03:24:05

Quote

I just read a thread on ogg vorbis on the server of the german c't magazine.
The post talks about a phenomenon he expereienced with ogg vorbis at high bitrates he calls 'listening fatigue'.

Quote-translated:
Quote
...above 196kbs the situation gets comlicated. You can listen to MP3s endoded at that high a bitrate easily for several hours without suffering from listening fatigue. Comparable Ogg Vorbis files (size, bitrate) make me nervous. Somehow the dynamics are missing and the high frequencies are being kind of 'cut off' and if you continue to raise the bitrate everything is getting worse.

Anyone with a comment? Garf?

P.S: Here is his LAME command line: -h -k -m s -v -V [2|0] (0 for CDs, 2 for radio recordings)

For years now I have experienced what I call "ear fatigue" when listening to most any of my audio CD's. I don't experience the same phenomenom with my vinyl material.

I am a hi-end audio entusiast and spend perhaps 20 or so hours each week critically listening to my music collection - a collection that is comprised of over 1,000 LP's and perhaps 1/2 that in CD's.

The "ear fatigue" I experience isn't a hurting or a ringing in my ear. (I listen to the vast majority of my music at low volume levels via pure class A amplification). What it is is a complete disinterest in listening to the music. My focus is lost when this happens and I'd just as soon watch a TV program than to listen to a piece of great music.

I've read that this phenomenon is likely caused by the odd order harmonics that digital inheritantly produces. Apparently analog produces even order harmonics which are more "natural" sounding and easier on the ear mechanics than it's digital counterpart.

My guess is that this "listening fatigue described above is something that you'll experience with any digital medium, and not something specific to OV.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #39 – 2002-10-30 03:24:31

>>Try not to confuse others with yourself.

...Gee.......OK......I thought I was you. Thanks?...

Did I confuse you? Must of 'cause my real meaning went over your head.

Xenno

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #40 – 2002-10-30 03:28:27

Quote

I actually have a "listening log" for the past year (since I started using Ogg Vorbis). I needed to listen to all albums to check for ripping errors (my old Plextor drive was slightly broken). So I wrote "OK" beside all albums without errors. I rarely listened to an "OK" album more than once. It has taken me a whole year to listen to some 600-800 cds -- 2-3 per day.

Since 1992 I have been listening to 6-14 hours of music every day. It is quite obvious that I am listening to much less music now than earlier. I find myself sitting in silence (or the computer fan) quite often.

Annuka,

I won't discount the possibility that listening to lossy compressed music might increase listener fatigue. Without presuming that something else is causing your lack of desire to listen to as much music, I will say that there are a large number of variables that are difficult to control and that could be part of the problem:

1. Encoding/Listening to each of 800 cds and deciding if they are OK is a task. From your method that I quoted, it sounds like you've treated it like one (careful listening, keeping a log, rarely listening to the same one twice). This can affect how much you enjoy listening.

In going back to lossless for a period of time, you may not be listening the same way: you certainly won't be listening for errors . This may be somewhat less taxing and allow you to enjoy the music more and longer.

2. Changes in your workload or the type of work and how much concentration it requires could have some impact. If you were listening 6-14 hrs a day, you were listening while working on other things. Even if music can make work more enjoyable sometimes, its adding another stimulus for your brain to process

3. Changes in mood: Impatience, irritability, depression, frustration, etc. Whether big or small, these can have an impact. We're not talking about someone getting pissed off and giving up music forever. IMO it takes very little change in my mood for me to decide to change a song or turn it off. YMMV...

4. The tried and true "chocolate cake" hypothesis: Too much of a good thing. Is it possible we begin to appreciate music less if we're listening all the time?

5. Changes in your listening preferences

6. Getting old and senile

This is not an exhaustive list. Nor am I trying to neatly fit you into any of the possible causes. I'm just not sure that going back to cds for a month won't be something of a "vacation" from the listening experiences you've been having and I don't know how you can account for other factors.

Let me know what happens?

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #41 – 2002-10-30 10:10:33

pantheranddawg,

Your points are indeed valid. I can add one myself: I am heavily biased against going lossless. Buying 300 Gb harddisk capacity + 300 Gb harddisk backup is rather expensive. Not to mention the time it takes to rip my collection again / retrieve burned flacs.

So I will proceed as follows:

1. Listen to lossless only for one month. If I only listen to three albums per day, I will disregard this fatigue theory right away and stop the experiment here.

2. Listen to Ogg Vorbis only for another month. Compare with results from 1.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #42 – 2002-10-30 12:21:54

Quote

I've read that this phenomenon is likely caused by the odd order harmonics that digital inheritantly produces. Apparently analog produces even order harmonics which are more "natural" sounding and easier on the ear mechanics than it's digital counterpart.

Well, digital, "per se", if properly used, doesn't introduce any nonlinear distortion (including harmonics) at all. The solid state analog part of DAC devices is the one that produces distortion and adds odd harmonics.

But with good quality DAC devices (very common today), this harmonics are so small ( below -90 dB over signal) that are inaudible for human ear.

On the contrary, amps without negative feedback and specially vinyl, produce, in comparison, lots of nonlinear distortion, many times in form of even harmonics. This kind of distortion adds some warmness and characteristic sound to the perceived sound. Some people find this sound more pleasant and enjoyable to listen, but in fact, it is a less "neutral" sound than the produced from good digital.

Quote

My guess is that this "listening fatigue described above is something that you'll experience with any digital medium, and not something specific to OV.

There's an experiment relatively easy to perform. Record the output from your vinyl with a good sound card, and then play it. Using a good soundcard, the real vinyl and the digitally played vinyl will be undistinguishable, the digital soundcard output will sound as good as the vinyl.

Maybe what you don't like is the mastering of cd's and prefer the "colored" sound that vinyl produces.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #43 – 2002-10-30 13:33:18

Quote

I've read that this phenomenon is likely caused by the odd order harmonics that digital inheritantly produces. Apparently analog produces even order harmonics which are more "natural" sounding and easier on the ear mechanics than it's digital counterpart.

What a coincidence, I have my course notes about Analog Signal Processing lying open on my desk right now... I'm just reading it...

In analog devices (amplifiers etc...) there's a thing called soft distortion. This distortion causes harmonics. Soft distortion can me mathematically modelled with series expansion (? dutch=reeksontwikkeling).

The even distortion coefficients result in a DC term and even harmonics. The odd distortion coefficients result in the fundamental waveform + odd harmonics. In analog circuits, the even harmonics can be avoided (differential circuit). I don't read anything about how to avoid the odd harmonics.

Digital circuitry does not produce harmonics, bits stay bits, but as you all know at the end those bits need to be converted to analog and then amplified. The same harmonics will be introduced as with analog recordings, and the quality of your equipment will determine how bad/good the distortion is.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #44 – 2002-10-30 15:43:01

Interesting debate fellas.

Whatever the reason, I (very) often times lose interest in listening to my digital collection. And it's not like I have an inferior digital front end. Throughout much of the last 15 years I've owned, or seriously auditioned, digital front ends from the likes of Krell, Micromega, PS Audio, Proceed, Roxsan, Musical Fideltiy, Linn, Muse, Bel Canto, and others I'm certainly forgetting. I've listened to all digital formats besides just CD Audio; DAT, DVD-A, SACD, 16/44 CD, et all. I grow uncomfortable listening to all of these formats during extended listening periods. Yet, the same doesn't happen to me when I'm listening to my vinyl setup (Maplenoll/ET-2/Vandenhull grasshopper). In fact, dating back to my original entry into high end vinyl reproduction (the original Pink Triangle and Linn LP12) I can't recall a single instance of my getting up and closing an audio session for anything but time limitations. By contrast, I've probably cut short my digital listening a hundred times over the years because I've lost interest in the music.

Why?

Like KikeG mentions, my ears seem to prefer the warm, coloured sound of analog. I mean they've been trained to discrimenently listen to very good sounding vinyl for over 30 years now! This is my reference point afterall. Unfortunately, more and more listeners are growing up without this reference point. They grow up only listening to digital sound (or inferior quality analog reproduction) and do not hear (because they don't know what to listen for?

?) the unfriendly distortions? that I hear in much of the digital media I listen to. To me, these digital distortions sound very different compared to the harmonic distortions I hear from my vinyl. Very different and not nearly as enjoyable. At least to these ears.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #45 – 2002-10-30 19:28:38

If I may add my 2c, too:
One of the possible conclusions seems to be that it's all a matter of being used to something. Or the ear being 'trained' to listening to some form of music reproduction.

I will even widen this and say that it's a matter of what media you hear when your taste in music is established (lets say between 14 and 20). You will like this style of music best for the rest of your life and also the form of reproduction. If it was vinyl, your brain (your ear?) will not like digital later on. If it's CD audio you probably will not like some form of compression. And if it was mp3z you grew up with, maybe then you won't like ogg.

Above all, I really can't do any listening tests that would prove this concept to be true. I will probably never listen to music the way I did when I was a teenager. Simply because I don't have the time (job, family etc.) anymore. Maybe I will have that time again when I'm a pensionist, but then again I won't have the same ears....

Dificult theories in here.... :=) And a lot more than 2c, right?

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #46 – 2002-10-30 20:45:44

Okay, this has to be the weirdest thread I've ever read. There's almost no scientific way to be able to correlate any audio compression method with fatigue, because you can't have a control without listening to the same music over and over again, which is likely to cause fatigue in its own right.

Oh, and unless you've spent time in an anechoic chamber, you've got no idea what silence really sounds like.

By the way, if you encode silence with Vorbis, you'll hear me whisper 'Go to sleeeep, go to sleeeeep.' That may have something to do with it.

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #47 – 2002-10-31 11:23:52

Well, cuz it seems to be way cool to say something on this topic, I will do so too...

I'll try to keep it short... I can only say something about the theory of listening fatique, and only based on what I study: psychology.

Some of you say - it doesnt exist, because you cant measure it - or something like that. Well, thats not really a point, we're not talkin' here about fysics, but the brain. There are a lot things one does not see, but still enter the brain and do have their effects on it. Its common knowledge ppl do proces most of the information they recieve unconsiously, isnt it???

Listening fatique, and also hearing/'feeling' differences between ogg/mpc, digital/analog etc, might be mostly unconsious.

An example, in short: if one shows a picture to someone on a monitor, in a time shorter than some 50 miliseconds, they dont see it. in fact, if asked, they dont report having seen anything. But the contents of the pic actually DO influence them - if they have seen an banana, and afterwards you ask for the first collor in their mind, 90% whould say Yellow!!! Of course, just ask - why yellow, they will say - well, as you said, just the first in my mind. "sure you didnt see anything, did it have to do with the monitor??" "of course not, I said I didnt see anything there!!" "Even no banana???" "you must be kiddin'... didnt see anything, so no banana".

this is a very common effect, so - this is how strong the unconsious is... (in fact, its even worse, its alot stronger, but thats bleedin' edge research)

so - dont say if u cant ABX it, it isnt there... listening fatique can be very real, although we cant measure it. So, some research after the basics might be usefull. and maybe you're the guys who find out an compression which actually sounds better than 44.1/16 wave (of course only if u directly go from 96/24 > mpc/ogg)

btw, to the ppl talkin' bout the listening fatique they experienced, and the viniel-freaks, does 96/24 sound better to you??? does it solve the problem, or doesnt it??? And is it not placebo??? (cuz, dont blame it to easy on the unconsious, stay critical )

have a nice day...
(w00t)

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #48 – 2002-10-31 13:52:43

Quote

so - dont say if u cant ABX it, it isnt there... listening fatique can be very real, although we cant measure it.

I think that even if it's an inconscious phenomena, it could be ABX'ed. Not with the typical computer-based quick ABX test, but with a long-term, hi-fi based ABX test. Which is sort of what I'm (slowly) working on, this is, a simple ABX style file randomizer which generates "blinded" copies of files to burn on cd.

'listening Fatigue'

Reply #49 – 2002-10-31 13:57:39

Quote

They grow up only listening to digital sound (or inferior quality analog reproduction) and do not hear (because they don't know what to listen for??) the unfriendly distortions? that I hear in much of the digital media I listen to. To me, these digital distortions sound very different compared to the harmonic distortions I hear from my vinyl. Very different and not nearly as enjoyable. At least to these ears.

As I said, using good digital equipment there are no distortions you can talk of. The distortions that may exist, are so low (hundred times lower than on vinly) that are not audible at all.

Notice