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Topic: Vorbis Technology Demonstration (Read 36466 times) previous topic - next topic
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Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #25
Quote
Originally posted by guruboolez
It's hard to believe ! Absolutely amazing (but really awful, too)  
Can you go below ?


Going lower is no problem, keeping the quality acceptable is

I still need monty to help me out with a few things, I expect another reduction after that.

My goal is 3.2kbps average. (CD on a floppy)

--
GCP

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #26
Quote
Originally posted by Cygnus X1
Amazing. Though there are a few codecs designed for voice transmission in the 1000-6000bps range, I don't recall any of them ever being able to handle a musical signal this well when playing around with them (voxware, 1-bit ADPCM, etc). An application for such a low bitrate could include streaming audio for low-bandwidth digital cell phones (9-14.4kbps). Is it possible to get an 8Khz stereo encode at bitrates under 10kbps?


Stereo? That should be possible. It's 4kbps now, and using stereo should not double the bitrate.

--
GCP

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #27
An even more ambitous goal, one which I doubt is possible, would be able to get a signal down to 300 baud (.3kbps) as to theoretically be able to stream music over a 1970's era modem. Would this have any practical use? Of course not. However, it would be cool to know that it is theoretically possible. I used such a modem as kid in the 1980's and always wondered if music could be sent over it, even back then, before I knew what a CD or audio compression was

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #28
well.. about the 4Kbps .ogg's.. I preffer the 6kbps ones by far.. (there is more musical content!)

Also, I suppose that in these bitrates, the Header of vorbis does really influenciate (see http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showth...54&pagenumber=3 ).

So, that 4kbps .ogg is quite in the limit of information.

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #29
Quote
An even more ambitous goal, one which I doubt is possible, would be able to get a signal down to 300 baud (.3kbps) as to theoretically be able to stream music over a 1970's era modem. Would this have any practical use? Of course not. However, it would be cool to know that it is theoretically possible.

Almost certainly not music, but there are experimental voice codecs which are aiming for ultra-low bitrates. Of course, they sound nothing like the original - but even getting something comprehensible out of bitrates this low is amazing.

For example this discusses a 500 bps voice codec.

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #30
If one had REALLY crappy speakers (like the builtin laptop speakers from older laptops, or those unpowered little ones) this wouldn't sound like complete crap. As they are, they sound very nice at such a small bitrate.

It would be interesting to see what MP3Pro, LAME, and WMA could produce at similiar bitrates.

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #31
Quote
Originally posted by greenirft
It would be interesting to see what MP3Pro, LAME, and WMA could produce at similiar bitrates.
A 12kbps WMA sounds like crap already... So I'd hate to find out what 4-6kbps would do.


Ok, I just did a test with both WMA and OGG at 12kbps and the ogg sounds flatter but with less artifacts while the wma seems more dynamic but has the typical metal sound, but extremely magnified. Choose your poison.


Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #33
Ok, there's a good thing to tell about those last samples, and a bad thing aswell,

The good thing is that the stereo version sounds (quality wise) almost like the mono one, with not much more bits (although the stereo image is different from the original, but at least gives a feel of space).

The bad one is... I CANNOT seek! (plugin fault?). When I jump after second 25, the player jumps to the next song.

(btw... this was with ssres2/3 )



Edit: Ok, now I can seek.

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #34
Try again. I tried rehuff on the files, which still seems to have a few problems. The ones that are up now have fixed headers. If there's still problems, I'll have to do without rehuff.

--
GCP

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #35
I have the same seeking problems with Tobias DirectShow Filters, when I go to later than 1:38 (scarres2) it plays again from the beginning. scarres3 doesn´t seek at all. Winamp (2.80a, in_vorbis 1.2) seeks perfect scarres2, but in sacrres3 it also doesn´t work at all.
Are there sources/binaries of these "20020717 'Floggy"-oggenc somewhere downloadable? I searched the vorbis/vorbis-dev mailing list but I couldn´t find anything.

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #36
Quote
Originally posted by S_O
I have the same seeking problems with Tobias DirectShow Filters, when I go to later than 1:38 (scarres2) it plays again from the beginning. scarres3 doesn´t seek at all. Winamp (2.80a, in_vorbis 1.2) seeks perfect scarres2, but in sacrres3 it also doesn´t work at all.
Are there sources/binaries of these "20020717 'Floggy"-oggenc somewhere downloadable? I searched the vorbis/vorbis-dev mailing list but I couldn´t find anything.


Did you download the current files?

The source/binaries for the library aren't available yet - it's unfinished. (On certain songs, it magically degrades into the sound of passing spaceships)

--
GCP

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #37
Yes.
Both encoded with Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717 'Floggy'
scarres2.ogg: 111.835 Bytes
scarres3.ogg: 116.354 Bytes

Also the library is unstable and unfinished yet, it would be great to test it. Tarkin is also avaible yet (and it works great at high bitrates, compresses images better than Jpeg2000!!)

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #38
Quote
Originally posted by Garf
I've shaved off another 40-50%, so they're around 3.8kbps now.

http://sjeng.org/ftp/vorbis/scarres2.ogg  (4.0kbps)
http://sjeng.org/ftp/vorbis/ssres2.ogg (4.3kbps)
http://sjeng.org/ftp/vorbis/qnres2.ogg (3.2kps)

Not much worse than the previous ones due to better tuning & some hints from Klemm.

-- 
GCP


Bit packing is still suboptimal. gzip (a zero knowledge compressor) still reduces
size by 6..7 %.
--  Frank Klemm

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #39
Quote
Originally posted by S_O
Yes.
Both encoded with Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717 'Floggy'
scarres2.ogg: 111.835 Bytes
scarres3.ogg: 116.354 Bytes

Also the library is unstable and unfinished yet, it would be great to test it. Tarkin is also avaible yet (and it works great at high bitrates, compresses images better than Jpeg2000!!)


I uploaded a new version of scarres3.ogg (http://sjeng.org/ftp/vorbis/scarres4.ogg) which isn't rehuffed. But scarres2.ogg and scarres3 should work! I've tested it here and xmms handles them fine.

The original scarres3 that I uploaded was corrupted and not seekable, but the one that is up now should be. Maybe these are player bugs? XMMS for example thinks they're sampled at 60khz. I guess most players aren't tested with this kind of files

--
GCP

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #40
Quote
Originally posted by Frank Klemm


Bit packing is still suboptimal. gzip (a zero knowledge compressor) still reduces
size by 6..7 %.


I know! They are using untrained codebooks. Whenever I try to use my own ones, the quality drops noticeably. This is where I need monty's help.

--
GCP

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #41
scarres4 is seekable in winamp, but with tobias ds-filters only to the half. Because this problem is also in scarres2 which also seeks perfect in winamp it seems to be a problem in the ds-filters. I´ll report this problems to Tobias.
Both programs (winmap and the ds-filters) say that the files are 6kHz sampled, is that the right samplerate?

Is this "Floggy"-Vorbis yust playing around or real work on a very-low-bitrate vorbis mode which will be implemented in the official encoder?

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #42
Quote
Originally posted by S_O
scarres4 is seekable in winamp, but with tobias ds-filters only to the half. Because this problem is also in scarres2 which also seeks perfect in winamp it seems to be a problem in the ds-filters. I´ll report this problems to Tobias.
Both programs (winmap and the ds-filters) say that the files are 6kHz sampled, is that the right samplerate?


For the 4kbps files yes, the 6kbps files are 8kHz sampled.

Quote
Is this "Floggy"-Vorbis yust playing around or real work on a very-low-bitrate vorbis mode which will be implemented in the official encoder?


It's just playing around, but when it's more or less working there's no reason it can't go into the offical codec. It doesn't interfere with the standard stuff.

--
GCP

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #43
No seeking problems here... Quite amazing quality, even though it sounds like crap... 

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #44
Garf,

This is excellent stuff! Please please keep up the good work. All other codec's must be trounced upon with great force! You are the great force!

What I'd really love is something like 32khz Stereo tuned for 32kbps. I mean /proper/ tuned. I think that currently there is a window for improvement. Any ideas? (Frank?)

Ruairi
rc55.com - nothing going on

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #45
Yes, this really is amazing for 3kbps! I remember thinking a couple of years ago that it would be impossible to get a signal with musical content lower than 16kbps (though I think some terrrestrial phone systems use 8kbps?). I think a quality 20kbps, 22.05Khz stream might be doable with Ogg (if it isn't already, haven't tested that bitrate) for internet streaming, or dare I say 32Khz, 32-40kbps stereo audio? Excellent work!

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #46
This is impressive!
The idea of carying around a whole album (read 10 songs) on a floppy is simply amazing. What about building an Ogg Vorbis hardware player with a floppy and a CFI/II drive. Floppy would be an ideal cheap and easy to use media...
dev0
"To understand me, you'll have to swallow a world." Or maybe your words.

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #47
I played around with the ultralowbitrate clips and I was quite amazed. In some of them there was quite a lot of signalclipping (I did not activate the hard-limiter in the decoder). So I decided to run vorbisgain on the files.
This was one of the results:

D:vorbisbackupultralowbitrate>vorbisgain *.ogg

Processing directory '.':
Analyzing files...

  Gain  |  Peak  | Scale | New Peak | Track
----------+--------+-------+----------+------
-11.45 dB |  51988 |  0.27 |    13912 | scar.ogg
-1.29 dB |  25355 |  0.86 |    21856 | ss.ogg
+0.72 dB |  27163 |  1.09 |    29511 | queen.ogg
-7.17 dB |  43151 |  0.44 |    18901 | waitress.ogg
-7.12 dB |  52190 |  0.44 |    22993 | daan.ogg
Couldn't initialize gain analysis (nonstandard samplerate?) for 'scarres4.ogg'

Does this mean that 6kHz sampling rate does not comply to the standard or is Vorbisgain wrong here ?
I use Vorbisgain 0.32 dated 2002-07-24 from RareWares

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #48
Quote
Originally posted by dev0
What about building an Ogg Vorbis hardware player with a floppy and a CFI/II drive. 


Eheh. Come on. The results are indeed amazing, but the quality is so bad anyway that I would throw my player through the window after listening to it for 10 minutes.

Vorbis Technology Demonstration

Reply #49
Quote
Originally posted by Hanky

Couldn't initialize gain analysis (nonstandard samplerate?) for 'scarres4.ogg'

Does this mean that 6kHz sampling rate does not comply to the standard or is Vorbisgain wrong here ?


You should read nonstandard as 'not commonly used enough that we put the code to handle it into vorbisgain'.

--
GCP