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Topic: Perfect ripping (Read 14830 times) previous topic - next topic
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Perfect ripping

Hi, I'm currently in the process of writing a guide for how to rip CD's perfectly, and if you could review it and comment on any errors you find, that would be great, thanks.

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The Anal-Retentive Connoisseur's Guide to Perfect Archival Quality Methodology

Purpose: This guide is written for the no-nonsense, anal-retentive pedantic perfectionist. If you are not a perfectionist, you will most likely disagree with the recommendations in this guide.


1. PREPARATION (takes around 4-6 hours)

1.1. Go to www.exactaudiocopy.com, download EAC and DAEQuality.

1.2. Test the accuracy of your CD-player's in-built "C2"-error detection (actually, CU-errors) according to the instructions at the "DAEQuality"-page at www.exactaudiocopy.com, at different constant-speed settings for your drive.
For Plextor-drives, the utility Plextools (at www.plextor.com) helps setting the constant speed for your drive.
If your CD-player's error-detection capabilities are accurate to 99.9% or above, you may proceed following this guide.
If not, a drive with a better CU-error detection (such as a Plextor), is required.

1.3. Install EAC, and set it up with the following options:
* F10
A. Gap Detection->Detection Accuracy->"Secure" (start out with this setting, if a CD doesn't rip with this setting, you may change it to "Inaccurate" for that particular CD, under the condition that you rip the entire CD to a single file)
B. Offset/Speed->Use read sample offset correction
->Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out (checked)
->Allow speed reduction during extraction (unchecked)
C. Drive->Spin up before extraction (checked)
D. Extraction Method
->Secure Mode
->Drive caches audio data (checked)
->Drive is capable of retrieving C2-error (actually, CU-error) information (checked)
* F9
A. Extraction
->Fill up missing offset samples with silence (checked)
->Synchronise between tracks (checked)
->Skip track-extraction on read- or synch-errors (checked)
->High priority (checked)
B. Filename->Naming Scheme->"%D_%C"

All set up? Congratulations, you are ready to start ripping!

Perfect ripping

Reply #1 –
For the perfectionnist, what about offset detection, CD text, gap settings for the cuesheet ? Test or not ? Accurate rip ? If Plextor drives are considered, why not Plextools instead of EAC ?

Also, the advice of searching another drive if C2 accuracy is <99.9 % is not good. A big scratch can make the most accurate drive loose a lot of C2 reportings if DAEquality fails to synch some intermediate damaged and misplaced parts of audio.

Perfect ripping

Reply #2 –
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For the perfectionnist, what about offset detection,


Ah, yes I forgot to go into details about that. Thanks.

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CD text,


Another reminder, thanks again.

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gap settings for the cuesheet ?


Right, when you are extracting a whole image that follows automatically, does it not? Or did I forget to include that setting?

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Test or not ?


Test of what, exactly? But perhaps I should have postet the second part of my "guide" as well, here we go:
Code: [Select]
2. RIPPING

2.1 Wipe your CD thoroughly in a radial motion before extraction, using a moist, non-flossing, fine-fibered cloth (such as can be bought for wiping glasses).

2.2. Start ripping your original copy of a compact-disc audio CD at the speed arrived at in 1.2., set in EAC as described in 1.3., by pressing ALT+F7, which copies an image (wav-file) to your harddisk.
If you detect any errors (a row of "lights" in the user-interface light up), stop ripping the CD, and either:
    2.2.1 Try another original copy of the CD.
    2.2.2 Do not rip the CD
The only exeption to this, is if only the first row lights up, and it happens at the end of the CD, reading into the LEAD-OUT area due to the adjustment of offsets. 
You should test that the CD is actually error-free, using another program (such as plextools), also at the constant speed arrived at in 1.2., before you conclude that this is the case.

You now have a CD-image on your harddisk (single wav-file), which you can encode using your favourite lossless encoder. This guide will explain how to use flac.


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Accurate rip ?


I am assuming you are referring to the "Accurate-rip" website. I see no reason for having any confidence in that endeavour.

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If Plextor drives are considered, why not Plextools instead of EAC ?


Heh. The lowest setting of plextools is "stop ripping after 100 or more errors", which is 100 errors too many. Also, I don't want to limit the "guide" to plextor drives only, and I may well tone down the references to that brand along the way.

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Also, the advice of searching another drive if C2 accuracy is <99.9 % is not good. A big scratch can make the most accurate drive loose a lot of C2 reportings if DAEquality fails to synch some intermediate damaged and misplaced parts of audio.


Ah, thanks, I am mostly concerned with factual errors at this time. However, looking at my now include "part 2", considering the approach of "if errors then stop", would it not be safe to assume that if there was a big scratch, errors would show up?

Thanks for your input Pio!

Perfect ripping

Reply #3 –
Why do you use terminology like "perfectionist", "pedantic", "anal-retentive" ? Your guide looks intimidating: people would think as though a proper setup of a good ripper requires a lot of tuning. It's actually a very easy process.

But if you're planning a guide for the masochists then that's fine
The object of mankind lies in its highest individuals.
One must have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.

Perfect ripping

Reply #4 –
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Why do you use terminology like "perfectionist", "pedantic", "anal-retentive" ?


  - Sorry, it's a pre-emptive take on the criticism I will undoubtably draw from publishing it on a forum which isn't as concerned with proper methodologies as HydrogenAudio.

Perfect ripping

Reply #5 –
4-6 hours sounds a bit harsh...it never took me that long to set up EAC. I would suggest leaving that statement out, since the amount of preparation time will vary with people's level of comfort with software, the number and type of drives they are using, etc.

Perfect ripping

Reply #6 –
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4-6 hours sounds a bit harsh...it never took me that long to set up EAC. I would suggest leaving that statement out, since the amount of preparation time will vary with people's level of comfort with software, the number and type of drives they are using, etc.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=230958"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, if you test your drive's accuracy at different speeds (with DAEQuality) at the speeds of 24, 12, 8, 4, 2, and 1, you end up with quite a few hours.
And that of course excludes the time spent in extracting the test image and burning it onto two or more CDs (as the scratching often is too severe for testing properly), as well as analysing the results.

So actually, we're looking at the better part of a day for that alone.

Perfect ripping

Reply #7 –
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Test or not ?


Test of what, exactly?


Test and copy selected tracks... but since you copy image and create cusheet...

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Accurate rip ?


I am assuming you are referring to the "Accurate-rip" website. I see no reason for having any confidence in that endeavour.


For inner tracks, by definition, it is much more secure than EAC itself as far as getting any error detected is concerned. So if you don't trust it, I don't see why you should trust EAC (but this is less true in your case, since you use C2 and 100% quality as an indicator). Its problem is reporting errors when there are none, but once you are aware of it, you can use the information it gives very efficiently : trust it when it reports no error on a CD that you rip for the first time, don't necessarily trust it when it says that your CD doesn't match.
However, since you copy image and create cuesheet, it would make things complicated.

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Also, the advice of searching another drive if C2 accuracy is <99.9 % is not good. A big scratch can make the most accurate drive loose a lot of C2 reportings if DAEquality fails to synch some intermediate damaged and misplaced parts of audio.


Ah, thanks, I am mostly concerned with factual errors at this time. However, looking at my now include "part 2", considering the approach of "if errors then stop", would it not be safe to assume that if there was a big scratch, errors would show up?


I was talking about a scratch on the DAEquality test CD. DAEquality can report some C2 inaccuracies in many cases, even with the best drives.
C2 testing should be more advanced. Maybe I should write down the process next time I test a drive.

Perfect ripping

Reply #8 –
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I was talking about a scratch on the DAEquality test CD. DAEquality can report some C2 inaccuracies in many cases, even with the best drives.
C2 testing should be more advanced. Maybe I should write down the process next time I test a drive.


I am assuming you mean to claim that "DAEQuality reports C2 [actually, CU, no?] errors inaccurately in many cases".

I haven't gotten into any detail on the testing part, but how about if I wrote (and this is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong please):
"Follow the instructions for burning, scratching, ripping and comparing with at least two disks, one of the disks having a deeper scratch than the other".

See, what I found was that I couldn't get a 100% accurate error-report if the test-disk was too severely scratched. And that is to be expected.
For the purpose of this "guide" I am writing, and the procedure I have outlined, are the above statements inaccurate or misleading?

Perfect ripping

Reply #9 –
You need to clean your CD with distilled water and Baby Soap, dry the CD in your
Refrigerator, at 3 degrees, insert to your drive, using accurate Rip and EAC or whatever tools. i assume you have configured your drive ( Offsets ). Gap detection...
Rip it.
If EAC displays 100.0% the CD is 100% and more then 100% doesn't exist.
Accurate Rip Database is Accurate.
And even if a single BIT on the end of a track is wrong, doesn't matter, it is Silence, and if you hear differences in Silence, you're listening to the Voice of Silence, HAIL ERIS!, Fnord!

Perfect ripping

Reply #10 –
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If you detect any errors (a row of "lights" in the user-interface light up), stop ripping the CD[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=230950"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You do realize that this means that EAC is doing error CORRECTION?  This is what makes EAC a secure ripper.  If the above is your theory you could just go ahead and reduce your guide to: Use *insert ripper of choice here* and if you see a speed drop, cancel the rip.
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Perfect ripping

Reply #11 –
no offense, but this is a completely pointless post. chris myden's page (chrismyden.com, i believe) has been used as a reference for setting up eac properly, and it does a fine job at it. (it also doesn't suggest things like stopping ripping if error correction goes into effect.) you don't need to spend your time doing this...

Perfect ripping

Reply #12 –
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You do realize that this means that EAC is doing error CORRECTION? 


No, I thought that meant it was detecting an incorrectible (CU) error, and tried to do a statistical approximation to whatever data could no longer be verified correctly with error codes, by reading it again and again and again.

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If the above is your theory you could just go ahead and reduce your guide to: Use *insert ripper of choice here* and if you see a speed drop, cancel the rip.


That could be a good rule of thumb, but as the speed changes, the error-detection accuracy also changes, so I'll go with constant speed.

Perfect ripping

Reply #13 –
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no offense, but this is a completely pointless post. chris myden's page (chrismyden.com, i believe) has been used as a reference for setting up eac properly, and it does a fine job at it.


Thanks, but could you give me a direct link to where at chrismyden.com there is a reference for EAC that is "better" than this?

This isn't meant to be a guide for setting up EAC only.

Perfect ripping

Reply #14 –
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no offense, but this is a completely pointless post. chris myden's page (chrismyden.com, i believe) has been used as a reference for setting up eac properly, and it does a fine job at it.


Thanks, but could you give me a direct link to where at chrismyden.com there is a reference for EAC that is "better" than this?

This isn't meant to be a guide for setting up EAC only.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


[a href="http://www.chrismyden.com/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=Elite_DAE&file=painless]http://www.chrismyden.com/nuke/modules.php...E&file=painless[/url]

Perfect ripping

Reply #15 –
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C. Drive->Spin up before extraction (checked)


Explain this feature don't make every reader have to do this for nothing.

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Accurate rip ?



I am assuming you are referring to the "Accurate-rip" website. I see no reason for having any confidence in that endeavour.

Why not? if your CD is in the database CRC's of your exact data are stored, which was gathered from a CD in different condition & was most likely ripped with a different drive an inaccurate match would be very unlikely plus it only takes a few seconds.


You should tell your readers to output an error log too.

What about freeDB, what about compression options?

Perfect ripping

Reply #16 –
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You do realize that this means that EAC is doing error CORRECTION? 


No, I thought that meant it was detecting an incorrectible (CU) error, and tried to do a statistical approximation to whatever data could no longer be verified correctly with error codes, by reading it again and again and again.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


read [a href="http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/]EAC homepage[/url] 
especially the technology section.

Also check this out:
CDFreaks EAC guide


edit:  added cdfreaks link
"You can fight without ever winning, but never win without a fight."  Neil Peart  'Resist'

Perfect ripping

Reply #17 –
> read EAC homepage
> especially the technology section.
>
> Also check this out:
> CDFreaks EAC guide

Well, feel free to read them too. EAC (or any other ripper) doesn't perform any error
correction, but retries and educated guesses based on statistics, pretty much as
DrDoogie explained. As explained before error correction is just not possible outside
of a drive.

Perfect ripping

Reply #18 –
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C. Drive->Spin up before extraction (checked)


Explain this feature don't make every reader have to do this for nothing.


Nah, I'm not inclined to explain anything in this guide I think. Too much work. Besides, on the extraction of a single image, it doesn't hurt none to spin it up, and seeing as the goal is perfect error detection through constant speed, well, spin-up it is.

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Why not? if your CD is in the database CRC's of your exact data are stored, which was gathered from a CD in different condition & was most likely ripped with a different drive an inaccurate match would be very unlikely plus it only takes a few seconds.


I don't trust CRC's. My impression is that they are orders of magnitude less accurate than C1+C2 error-detection and correction. Furthermore, if by my methodology (and I haven't written much about the "detect offset"-procedure in the guide yet) the CD rips perfectly, why should I care?

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You should tell your readers to output an error log too.


Nah, errors will often be (falsely, I believe) detected by reading into the Lead-Out with offset-correction, producing an erroneous error log. Also, if there are errors, EAC reports them in the visual interface.

But on second thought, maybe I should include a point about looking at the log and comparing with past error rates, if there are (false) errors in the Lead-Out, so that one can check whether it is the Lead-Out or something else producing the errors?

I hadn't thought about that, thanks for your tip!

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What about freeDB,


Simple by comparison, this is after all just a sketch of a guide, in which I am checking with people more skilled and knowledgable than me that I am not giving wrong instructions / leaving out crucial parts.

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what about compression options?


--SUPAR-SECRAT-TUTALLY-IMPRECTICALL!!1one

Or, that's also a minor point. There's not much difference between flac -8 and flac -5, so I'll just write that if a user has the power for it or don't mind leaving their computer churning away overnight (I'll be recommending that compression is handled apart from the ripping, so as not to interfere with the set speed for the extraction. Superstitious perhaps.), they're good to go with flac -8. Else, just stick with flac -5.

Thanks for your input.

Perfect ripping

Reply #20 –
>I don't trust CRC's. My impression is that they are orders of magnitude less accurate than C1+C2 error-detection and correction.

The thing is, C1 + C2 (especially badly implemented ones) and EACs rip and re-try can let an error through (it was demonstrated recently when EAC on someones Rip said the Rip was without errors, AccurateRip said it was inaccurate, re-ripping generated a rip that AccurateRip agreed upon, so the 2nd rip was the correct one). I will not go into the maths and dazzle you with how it is likely that your rip (with an error) and rips of other people (not just one) would have to match, it is in the 10's of billions.

Perfect ripping

Reply #21 –
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The thing is, C1 + C2 (especially badly implemented ones) and EACs rip and re-try can let an error through


But the use of DAEQuality covers for that, surely?

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I will not go into the maths and dazzle you with how it is likely that your rip (with an error) and rips of other people (not just one) would have to match, it is in the 10's of billions.


Well. I'm not entirely convinced, to tell the truth.

And I would argue that you fail to understand the National Security Agency's tongue-in-cheek's definition of a "trusted" system:
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A trusted system is a system that can break your trust.


If you do it right - you don't detect any errors, and your drive reports errors with 99.9% accuracy (or, 100% possibly, due to not-perfect rounding perhaps), why should you care about other people's opinions (submitted CRC-32 checksums)?

See, my objection is basically this:
1. What are you verifying?
2. Why do you need to verify it?

Also, my impression is that the whole checksum calculation deals with indices and offsets for the CD, not the accuracy of the actual data ripped.

Perfect ripping

Reply #22 –
I will just repeat, EAC could say a disc is 100% when really there is an error - all it needs is the error to read the same result twice (which is more common than you might think).

"What are you verifying?" well for any CD there is 1 correct ripping result - accuaraterip can tell you that result (ok in a CRC32 which is only 1 in 4 billion).

Perfect ripping

Reply #23 –
I just ripped 300+ discs with EAC and accuraterip enable. AccurateRip identified about 5 discs that did not rip accurately, even though EAC said there were no errors. Reripping got accuraterips. AccurateRip will also correctly set offset corrections and I think it is the only way to go for people that really want PERFECT rips.

Perfect ripping

Reply #24 –
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I will just repeat, EAC could say a disc is 100% when really there is an error - all it needs is the error to read the same result twice (which is more common than you might think).


I believe you missed this:
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1.2. Test the accuracy of your CD-player's in-built "C2"-error detection (actually, CU-errors) according to the instructions at the "DAEQuality"-page at www.exactaudiocopy.com, at different constant-speed settings for your drive.
For Plextor-drives, the utility Plextools (at www.plextor.com) helps setting the constant speed for your drive.
If your CD-player's error-detection capabilities are accurate to 99.9% or above, you may proceed following this guide.
If not, a drive with a better CU-error detection (such as a Plextor), is required.

1.3. Install EAC, and set it up with the following options:
* F10
...
D. Extraction Method
->Secure Mode
->Drive caches audio data (checked)
->Drive is capable of retrieving C2-error (actually, CU-error) information (checked)


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"What are you verifying?" well for any CD there is 1 correct ripping result - accuaraterip can tell you that result (ok in a CRC32 which is only 1 in 4 billion).


1. What do you mean by "correct ripping result". Answer that, please.
2. How many different submissions of "results" do you think there can be to accuraterip before a 100% reliable consensus on the "correct" result is reached?
3. What can using such a "result" contribute to the accuracy of the methodology that I have outlined?