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Topic: Preserving Vinyl (Read 5210 times) previous topic - next topic
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Preserving Vinyl

I'm unhappy with current wav files, and I'm going to start over.

I thought maybe this time I'd try a higher sampling rate. What, if any would be the advantages to recording vinyl at 96,000hz and then converting it to 44,100?

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #1 –
What's wrong?

I doubt that downsampling from 96 to 44,1 won't do any good...maybe someone better educated than me can elaborate on this...

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #2 –
Quote
What's wrong?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=229617"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Nothing, really. I'm just second-guessing my decision to record at 44.1 in the first place. I'd like to know that I made a wise choice before getting too far into this project.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #3 –
I think you did.

What's far more important is what (equipment) you use to "convert" your LPs

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #4 –
If you want to record at high sampling rates and later resample to 44100, record at 88200

It's better to do a 2:1 resampling than 2.17687...:1

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #5 –
Could you actually achieve higher quality by recording at 88200 then downsampling to 44100 as opposed to just recording at 44100 in the first place? 

I know some equipment can upsample or convert from 16 to 24 bit during playback, as my JVC car stereo does, but I have never researched exactly how the benefit is reached.  I hope I stated that correctly.
"The way we see our world is better than yours."

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #6 –
Thanks. I guess I'll be sticking with the files I already have.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #7 –
Additionally, my Stanton STR8-80 turntable has a coaxial digital output, as do some other turntables I have seen.  If anyone knows the sampling rate and/or bitrate at which this outputs, please let me know, as Stanton does not appear to list those details on their website.

And this now raises a question I've pondered in the past:  Is it better to transfer records to the PC using the digital or the analog output on the turntable?

Anyone please feel free to elaborate.
"The way we see our world is better than yours."

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #8 –
Without wishing to start another sample rate discussion...

There's a fledgling project called "Project Gramophone" hoping to archive early recordings in digital form.

One issue that was raised was that of sample rates. On some recordings, you can be 100% sure that there's nothing over 10kHz (never mind the CD limit of 22kHz!). However, in this archival use, there is some justification for capturing and preserving these recordings at the highest sample rate possible. The advantage to this approach is that clicks are broadband. This means that it (may be) easier for a de-clicking algorithm to accurately detect clicks in the recording if you can see that they clearly stretch up to 48kHz (say), rather than limiting the available information to the CD limit of 22kHz.


Beyond this, if the output will be 44.1kHz, then the only advantage to sampling at 88.2kHz and resampling is to avoid non-idealities in your soundcard (or any A>D converter). There is no theoretical advantage at all. The practical advantage is easily measurable (even on very good sound cards), but is not necessarily (or even probably) audible.

I do the whole job at 44.1kHz for convenience, though often use 48kHz for real-time on-the-fly de-clicking. On my old cheap soundcard, there was an obvious audible difference. On the Audiophile 2496 there is not, but it can't sound worse, so I've left the settings as they were.


As for which is better: digital or analogue output from your turntable: try it! It depends on the electronics and signal path in each chain. Either could be better.

Cheers,
David.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #9 –
Quote
Is it better to transfer records to the PC using the digital or the analog output on the turntable?


The main problem is clipping. Most soundcards don't have any line in attenuator exept a digital volume seeting. If the preamp output exeeds 1.4 V, the recording will clip regardless of the line in level set in the software mixer. It happens permanently on the Marian Marc 2, for example, with a Stanton Trackmaster cartridge, even on 33 rmp records. I don't even mention disco-maxi-45 records.

In this case using the digital output of the turntable should solve the problem, but I would personally check before.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #10 –
I dont thingk the 44.1khz vs 88.2 -> 44.1 khz is going to influence the quality as much as the lossy encoding.
Sven Bent - Denmark

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #11 –
When I do vinyl, I record to 24-bit 96khz.  I downsample to CD spec after de-clicking or editing anything later.  I was always under the impression that upon editing, the higher the bitrate/sample rate the less error is induced upon editing.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #12 –
Quote
Additionally, my Stanton STR8-80 turntable has a coaxial digital output, as do some other turntables I have seen.  If anyone knows the sampling rate and/or bitrate at which this outputs, please let me know, as Stanton does not appear to list those details on their website.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If they mention "S/PDIF" then it may well be 96 ksps at 24 bits/sample.

Here's an interesting link [a href="http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/HAN/docs/sp-dif.txt]About SP-DIF[/url].
------- Rick -------
--------------------

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #13 –
Hello 2Bdecided,

Quote
I do the whole job at 44.1kHz for convenience, though often use 48kHz for real-time on-the-fly de-clicking. On my old cheap soundcard, there was an obvious audible difference. On the Audiophile 2496 there is not, but it can't sound worse, so I've left the settings as they were.


Are you referring to real-time processing whilst Recording?
If so, what combination of Hardware and Software do you use that can do this?

Back to the original subject: I use 24/44.1 for 'clean' lps; 24/88.2 for 'polluted' lps.
IMHO my s/w works better at 88.2(it is slower to process). Clicks & pops > 0.5mS are removed manually.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #14 –
Does everyone declick their vinyl rips then?! I've seen the various declickers including the good one for soundforge but i dunno... being aggressive with it you can really eliminate those clicks but i wonder about what else is missed out.. i've never done manual touch ups on singular clicks either..

Anyways my main point though is that i quite like to leave the recording as is... its vinyl after all i quite like to hear the rumble and clicks, its like listening to the actual vinyl, is rarely offensive, and i dunno I just like it.. I'm going to go through and archive my small to medium (always growing though) collection... i'll adopt this philosophy... sadly i'm with an SBLIVE so i tend to record at 48khz as this will be better wont it seeing as the hardware is locked at this frequency regardless of what you make it do? But crucially i'll save everything in FLAC so that i can do with it what i wish later.. I guess thats another point to leaving it as is... I am then able to treat it as i need to.. its like working with images and keeping the original in bmp format (ok png maybe) and then working on the image, always keeping the "master" ..

Its not a right or wrong thing i was just curious if anyone else had considered being sympathetic and preserving that "warm" (heh.. ok clicky) authentic vinyl sound, rather than trying to get some kind of clean CD sound out of it.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #15 –
Something else I've been wondering...

Would there be any benefit to playing the vinyl at a slower speed. My next project will be a 45rpm single and I'm wondering if I should record it at 33.3rpm, then change the playback speed of the wav file.

I'm thinking that the slower speed might give me a better 'read' of the vinyl, but I'm concerned that changing the speed of the wav file would be just the same as compressing it. Right? What if I did this with a higher sampling rate? Would that make a difference?

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #16 –
Quote
Its not a right or wrong thing i was just curious if anyone else had considered being sympathetic and preserving that "warm" (heh.. ok clicky) authentic vinyl sound, rather than trying to get some kind of clean CD sound out of it.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=229826"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I (usually) don't use any sort of post-processing on my vinyl. Although I do own some de-clicking software, I feel that the results are too minimal for the trouble. When I listen to an MP3 of my record albums, I know it's an LP, and I like it that way. Sure, it clicks and hisses and rumbles, but if I really wanted my music free of that, I'd go and buy the CD....much less trouble than playing around with restoration software and editors.

BTW, I capture at 48Khz/16bits, as to facilitate easy encoding to lossy codecs. Plus, my cartridge seems to roll of after 24Khz, which means a higher sampling rate wouldn't make any difference.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #17 –
Quote
Its not a right or wrong thing i was just curious if anyone else had considered being sympathetic and preserving that "warm" (heh.. ok clicky) authentic vinyl sound, rather than trying to get some kind of clean CD sound out of it.
The problem I have is that I find the clicks distracting, especially with classical music. If the volume is up and there's a quiet passage and a nasty click comes along it can actually make me spill my beer! When CDs came out that was the biggest selling point for me; I was perfectly happy listening to pop music on LPs, but listening to classical (no matter how meticulous you are) was just not worth it.

Quote
Would there be any benefit to playing the vinyl at a slower speed. My next project will be a 45rpm single and I'm wondering if I should record it at 33.3rpm, then change the playback speed of the wav file.
A long tima ago I actually had a turntable modified to play at 16.6 rpm for this exact purpose. My thought was also that it would give the cartridge an easier time with tracking the groove (mis-tracking is common problem with vinyl). Unfortunately, the turntable had so much speed variation (wow) at the slow speed that it was unusable. I played a 1 kHz tone and it sounded like there was a fire in the neighborhood!

A few things need to be considered. The first is that low frequencies on the record are going to move down in frequency and if they get low enough they could start exciting the resonance of the stylus / arm combination. This is normally set at about 10 Hz, so you should be fine going from 45 to 33 unless your record is all pipe organ. Another issue is that the RIAA equalization curve has some turnover points that are at specific frequencies. When you play at a different speed these will have to move and so you would have to do some EQ afterward to compensate for that (although it might be so subtle it wouldn't matter). Finally, you will need some resampling software that allows arbitrary sampling rates (rather than just the standard ones). I'd say it was worth a shot.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #18 –
...but 45>33 is enough to do some audible damage if you don't fix the RIAA EQ, while not really being enough to help the tracking of high frequency signals.

I tried recording a 78rpm disc at half and quarter speed using an analogue tape deck and a varispeed record deck (a long time ago!). The results were encouraging, but using a better stylus and cartridge was much more of an improvement. I've yet to try the half-speed experiment with the better cartridge - that would be my project for tonight if I didn't have other things to do!

Cheers,
David.

Preserving Vinyl

Reply #19 –
Quote
Does everyone declick their vinyl rips then?! I've seen the various declickers including the good one for soundforge but i dunno... being aggressive with it you can really eliminate those clicks but i wonder about what else is missed out.. i've never done manual touch ups on singular clicks either..
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=229826"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


To be honest, I play the records themselves!

If I'm copying to CD, it's usually for someone else's use, and it needs declicking.

I do it rarely, and it's possible to do a job that will please someone else.

With real time declicking, it's just a case of declicking it well enough to listen to it there and then (but that's for 78s - I don't normally do that for LPs). It stops me being too picky.

On the one occasion that I tried declicking a 78rpm record for my own "archival" use, doing the best job that I could by hand, I was so picky about it that I never finished the job! In fact I was sick of hearing the damn thing before I even got half way through!

Cheers,
David.