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Topic: AAC Compatibility with iPod (Read 30311 times) previous topic - next topic
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AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #25 –
Please send it to:

idimkovic  ( AT ) nero ( DOT ) com

and

mbakker ( AT ) nero ( DOT ) com

Thanks...

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #26 –
neomoe,

Thanks for the files. They don't crash my iPod (good for us, not good for you). I also did a marathon run today, playing 8 hours of Nero mp4 files continuouly, no problems at all. So this is probably some iPod (or maybe iTunes) problem. What firmware version do you have? I have 2.1, the latest. For Model it says M8976TN, don't know if that means anything.

If you don't have the latest version of the firmware, please upgrade and try again. If that doesn't help, try doing a hard reset and/or format the harddrive and try again.

Menno

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #27 –
hi!

I have firmware 1.3 (2nd gen.)...

I experienced that files that have been tagged via iTunes don't work, but the same files without altered tags (only tagged by foobar) play fine. so, it's a problem of co-existence of apple and ahead, I guess.

i'll stick to ephpod 2.76 from now on.
and i'll test, if any problems occur by altering tags!

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #28 –
lazyn00b,

I had the EXACT same problem you describe with Nero AAC files. I about killed myself trying to figure it out but I found the solution that worked for me:

I had 'Sound Check' enabled on both the iPod and iTunes. If I deleted the files from iTunes and resynced (so the files were deleted from my iPod)and then synced with the VERY SAME files with 'Sound Check' OFF in both iTunes and the iPod, they played fine.

Seems like a bug in iTunes.



Bryan

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #29 –
bryanb,

which ipod generation do you own?
did you experience something like I did?
what happens, if you do not alter tags via itunes?

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #30 –
neomoe,

I have a 3g 20Gb iPod with FW 2.1.

I have not experienced what you describe in your post. The only problems I have had are with the Sound Check issue in iTunes.


Bryan

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #31 –
okay, seems like I will have to do some testing..
i'll check this soundcheck-thing and i'll test how ephpod handles those files..
but i guess the problem occurs, because of the itunes-tags.

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #32 –
Quote
okay, seems like I will have to do some testing..
i'll check this soundcheck-thing and i'll test how ephpod handles those files..
but i guess the problem occurs, because of the itunes-tags.

Do you mean you used ephpod for uploading the original files? Can you try if the crashing still happens when you use iTunes for that?

The program that uploads the files writes to the database on the iPod, something could go wrong there. After that, if you edit the tags directly on the iPod using iTunes the database entry gets rewritten (or fixed maybe...?) by iTunes.

Menno

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #33 –
no, I used iTunes.
but I will test ephpod and hope it'll work!
I think i'm on the right way - it has to do with the iTunes tagging.

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #34 –
okay - testing finished!

here's what i've done:

first I transfered the files (one complete album - encoded with nero-codec [2.6.1.1.] via foobar2000 and also tagged with f2k) using iTunes to my iPod. - all of them played fine, no skipping, no crashing. then I altered the tag from the first file of the album with iTunes (I wrote something into the comment-field). result: this file skipped, the rest played fine.
then I deleted all of them from my iPod and transfered them again, using ephpod 2.76. I had to change some tags, because ephpod misinterpreted few of the umlauts. I disconnected the Ipod from my PC and all files played fine again!
sound check, sound enhancer and crossfade playback have been enabled during the whole testing.

conclusion: don't alter tags using iTunes and live happily ever after! 

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #35 –
I decided to borrow my sisters iPod today to test some of this out.

My AAC files are encoded via the fb2k nero output, tagged there also, with tags modified in iTunes (should cause crashes according to reports here).  Everything seems to work fine so far.  I haven't had a single crash or skipped file.

This is with iTunes on Mac OS X btw, but menno told me he has tried this process with the PC iTunes also and has not had problems either.

Not sure what is going on, but it seems to work fine here.

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #36 –
I did some testing and here's what I think is happening.

Transcode - Using fb2k, transcode a FLAC file using Nero Encode 2.6.0.6.  I used the VBR/Stereo-Transparent preset with the .m4a file extension option checked.  The size of the resulting file is 3,710,034 bytes.

Import - Import the file into iTunes (sound check enabled).  The size of the original file immediately changes to 3,712,244 bytes (2210 bytes larger).  However, the node for the song in the iTunes library XML file still shows the file size as 3,710,034 bytes.

If I change (or even just view) the tag info for the file within iTunes, then the XML file is updated with the correct file size.

My theory is that if the file size in the XML file is incorrect, the file is uploaded onto the iPod missing those extra bytes (2210, in this case) and it causes the iPod to skip the song or just crash.

Unfortunately, I left my iPod at work and can't check the file sizes on it until tomorrow    Anyway, let me know if this all sounds plausible.

-Aaron

Forgot to mention, this is on a Windows XP PC.

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #37 –
Dibrom,

what version of the nero-encoder did you use?

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #38 –
Quote
Import - Import the file into iTunes (sound check enabled). The size of the original file immediately changes to 3,712,244 bytes (2210 bytes larger). However, the node for the song in the iTunes library XML file still shows the file size as 3,710,034 bytes.

If I change (or even just view) the tag info for the file within iTunes, then the XML file is updated with the correct file size.

My theory is that if the file size in the XML file is incorrect, the file is uploaded onto the iPod missing those extra bytes (2210, in this case) and it causes the iPod to skip the song or just crash.


you said, you tagged all of the files in iTunes, right?
so, you think one must not tag the files two times, or what?

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #39 –
Quote
you said, you tagged all of the files in iTunes, right?
so, you think one must not tag the files two times, or what?

No, the files are all tagged by default when transcoding using foobar.  I'm assuming that NeroEncode is the thing actually doing the original tagging on the AAC file, but I may be wrong.  Everything imports just fine into iTunes (song title, artist, etc. all show up correctly) and the song plays.  However, if I synch my iPod at this point, the song skips.

Again, the reason I think this happens is that when the song is first imported, iTunes does something to the file that causes the file size to increase ~2KB.  However, the original file size is what's recorded in the iTunes XML file.  Therefore, when I synch my iPod, iTunes thinks it has transferred the full file (because it uses the file size in the XML file as an indicator), but in actuality it missed those extra 2KB which causes it to malfunction on the iPod.

If I view or change the tag info from within iTunes, then the XML data for that song is rewritten with the correct file size.  If I synch my iPod after that then the full file is transferred and it works fine.

Neomoe -- I think we are experiencing two different problems.  I have a 20GB 3G iPod with firmware 2.1 and am using iTunes 4.2.  Editing a song's tag info from within iTunes ensures that the song will play on my iPod.  You seem to be having the opposite problem.

Menno or Ivan -- Do you have any ideas on what might be happening?  Does this sound like a tagging problem with NeroEncode or foobar or is it an iTunes tag/import issure? When I get home, I'll do some more testing by checking file sizes on my iPod for songs that skip.  Let me know if I should send you any test files.  Thanks for the help!

-Aaron

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #40 –
Quote
Menno or Ivan -- Do you have any ideas on what might be happening?  Does this sound like a tagging problem with NeroEncode or foobar or is it an iTunes tag/import issure? When I get home, I'll do some more testing by checking file sizes on my iPod for songs that skip.  Let me know if I should send you any test files.  Thanks for the help!

I can make an educated guess:

iTunes writes some "free" data to a file when tagging (almost 10KB IIRC), we don't do that. It could be that iTunes somehow assumes it never has to increase the filesize when tagging, because it assumes it can use that "free" data. EDIT2: are you using SoundCheck? Itunes probably tries to write an extra tag directly when importing.

EDIT: oh and sending me a file that skips would be appreciated.

Menno

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #41 –
Quote
Neomoe -- I think we are experiencing two different problems. I have a 20GB 3G iPod with firmware 2.1 and am using iTunes 4.2. Editing a song's tag info from within iTunes ensures that the song will play on my iPod. You seem to be having the opposite problem.


yeah! very strange! 

Actreus,

could you tell me, how to analyze the iPod/iTunes Database?
perhaps something comparable happens to me..
i'll try same procedure as before, but sound check disabled.

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #42 –
I think we should definitely include someone from Apple into this discussion...  I'll try to invite all people I know

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #43 –
I'm having a similar type of problem.  I create M4A files using foobar 0.7.7a and Nero encoder (2.6.1.1), then use freedb to get the tags before importing into iTunes.  The files play fine in iTunes, but when I try and play them on my iPod it will just skip through the whole album.

The way that I fix this is by using the optimize MP4 layout in foobar and then manulally deleting and retransferring them to the iPod.  I've tried doing the optimizing step before importing into iTunes but this doesn't fix it, it only seems to work if I do it after importing into iTunes.  (I'm just going to double check this)

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #44 –
Quote
I'm having a similar type of problem.  I create M4A files using foobar 0.7.7a and Nero encoder (2.6.1.1), then use freedb to get the tags before importing into iTunes.  The files play fine in iTunes, but when I try and play them on my iPod it will just skip through the whole album.

The way that I fix this is by using the optimize MP4 layout in foobar and then manulally deleting and retransferring them to the iPod.  I've tried doing the optimizing step before importing into iTunes but this doesn't fix it, it only seems to work if I do it after importing into iTunes.  (I'm just going to double check this)

if you are transcoding from other files .. the tags should already be in the M4A files.

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #45 –
Well in typical fashion I just tried this with 2 albums, one were I used Optimize MP4 layout and the other were I didn't.  Both worked fine on my iPod.

Another case of deliberatly trying to recreate a problem and failing 

(Though does anyone know what got changed between foobar 0.7.7a and 0.7.7b as I just updated before doing this)

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #46 –
Ok, after additional testing here's what I found out:

1. The full file is transferred to the iPod (no missing bytes)
2. The iPod skips only happen when the song is imported into iTunes with Sound Check enabled or if Sound Check is enabled in iTunes before the song is first copied to the iPod.  The Sound Check setting on the iPod doesn't matter.

It's an easy enough problem to get around, so basically I'm waiting to see what Ivan or Menno says about it. 

neomoe - if you're running Windows, the iTunes Music Library XML file is located in: "My Documents/My Music/iTunes".  You can open up this file with any text editor (well, it might be too big for Notepad).  Each song gets its own node and the playlists (lists of song ID numbers) are at the bottom of the file.

-Aaron

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #47 –
Atreus,

I have tried to import files with sound check disabled, then tagged them within iTunes 4.2 - most time it worked, but in one case it didn't. there must be another issue..

okay, that's enough.  i'll wait for an update of the iPod-FW and the nero-codec.
and, in the meantime, don't tag them with iTunes.

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #48 –
This file crashes my Ipod 75% of the time and skips at 19 seconds the other 25% of the time.  I encoded it with foobar and Nero 2.5.8.2.  No idea if the file is damaged, but it plays fine in foobar and WMP (with needed filters of course) and dispite what the tag implies, I really did encode that AAC myself about 1 month ago.

I uploaded it with Ephpod orginally, but once i removed it from my Ipod, and then reupped it with iTunes it still acted the same.

Edit:  Link is www.u.arizona.edu/~mikeg/01 - War Of Wrath.m4a

AAC Compatibility with iPod

Reply #49 –
The iPod (3d Gen, 40GB) cannot play FLAC files transcoded to M4A w/ foobar 0.7.7b, Nero Encoder 0.36, and Nero 6.3.0.0. It doesn't matter whether the files are transcoded to Transparent VBR or 128CBR. The resultant *.mp4 files are renamed via the CLI *.m4a.

I have no issue with these M4A files encoded by iTunes.

I suspect that Menno's assessment of the SoundCheck and the padding difference in M4A files encoded w/ iTunes v. Nero is correct. However, beyond the CBR contribution, I would like to say that you cannot turn off SoundCheck in iTunes 4.1/4.2 in Windows XP! The interface shows that it is unchecked, but SoundCheck nevertheless occurs and a tag is written to the M4A file.

Finally, I would note, however, that I previously batch encoded several thousand FLAC files to (Transparent) M4A using the old NeroAAC foobar plugin (which seems to have all but disappeared) and, I believe, the old Nero 6.0.x without playback issues on the iPod. So, whether or not padding is the issue, the change occured either in Nero 6.0 --> 6.3 or foobar NeroMP4 to NeroEncoder plugin.