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Poll

Which one is your extension MP4 or M4a?

MP4
[ 93 ] (49.7%)
M4a
[ 94 ] (50.3%)

Total Members Voted: 258

Topic: MP4 or M4a (Read 26892 times) previous topic - next topic
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MP4 or M4a

Reply #75 –
So, if I encode with some program that makes .mp4, will they play on my iPod?

Thanks.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #76 –
You will likely want to rename your .MP4 files to .M4A to take best advantage of playback in iTunes. The iTunes software requires the .M4A file extensions for MPEG 4 Audio files to be able to upload them to your iPod.

The easiest solution for you to avoid the file extension renaming issue would likely be to get encoder software that has an option to produce iPod/ITunes compatible files saved with a .M4A file extension...

WinAmp 5.02 will currently rip/encode files from an Audio CD with a default file extension of .M4A

Nero 6 developers are considering adding the ability for users to select an option to save files with a .M4A extension. Nero (latest update) just added support for reading/playback of files with a .M4A extension by the way.

Compaact! 1.20 release version should have this feature to save file with .M4A extension. The current beta version of 1.20 has this feature.

Hopefully the new Real Player 10 Gold (non beta) will play back and encode HE AAC files using BOTH .M4A and .MP4 file extensions also.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #77 –
I give up.    I don't wanna have to do all that.

I read all of the philosophical discussion about why some people think this one or that.  I can see both sides.

But from an average user standpoint. None of it matters.  Give me one standard that is easy to use and understand.

I don't want to have to worry about picking which file extension to use and then have to convert them for different players.  What if I want to have two different portable players. What if one likes .m4p and the other requires .m4a.

Its all a bunch of nonsense.  If thats the path the industry will take, its a dead end. 

Its already bad enough we have to navigate the MP3/WMA/AAC thing, much less the fact that AAC standard appears to not even be a standard.  Do you think I could even attempt to explain all this to my gal next month when she gets an iPod mini?  Yeah, right...

MP4 or M4a

Reply #78 –
Just use iTunes to encode then, and save everything in .M4A format and you will be happy (and your gal friend too) with playback in your iTunes software and your iPods (and Ipod Mini). That way you don't need to rename anything.

I understand your frustration. I have been trying to inform the audiophiles and software developers of this dual filename issue, but the response I have gotten has mostlly been that not suporting both filename extensions was "no big deal".

But I knew that there would be millions of people just like you, podunk, that would get an iPod or a PC loaded with iTunes who didn't want to fuss with or learn how to rename the files they encoded with other software from .MP4 to .M4A file extensions. Soon, hopefully, all audio apps should be able to save to the .M4A file extension to support the broadest level of compatibility between different audio software programs

Thanks for posting your comments/gripes about the 2 file extensions here. Many audio software developers regularly read posts on this forum. Your poll vote and comments do matter, and I'm sure won't go unnoticed.

Please don't give up, but try to bear with the AAC format (.M4A files). You'll be glad you did. It is a very nice audio encoding format. Enjoy your iPods.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #79 –
Does it make sense to distinguish between different types of content in MP4 files anyway? There are many different MPEG audio formats that could all be used in an MP4 file, so even for a .m4a file you couldn't be sure whether it carries AAC or something else, and whether it's supported by the associated application or not.

Btw, the forthcoming lossless MPEG-4 ALS codec can also use MP4 files.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #80 –
Quote
So, if I encode with some program that makes .mp4, will they play on my iPod?

Thanks.

Quote
So, if I encode with some program that makes .mp4, will they play on my iPod?


The iPod will play .mp4 no renaming and every other uploading program except iTunes is happy (AFAIK) uploading .mp4 to the iPod

MP4 or M4a

Reply #81 –
Quote
... every other uploading program except iTunes is happy (AFAIK) uploading .mp4 to the iPod

My point exactly. 

Again, if it has to be explained it is too complicated.  The industry needs to pick a standard.

Again, I don't care which one. But there needs to be just one.

And it seems to me that by default .m4a is already the standard of the common man.  It seems many of you here use a variety of high tools, but the regular folks like me use iTunes and Winamp.  iTunes started the widespread adoption of AAC and they called it .m4a.  I think there are way more iTunes users making AAC doec than any other. 

Its too late for philosophy.  Lets deal with reality.

That's all I have to say. I promise.  I'm not asking for more help.  I just want people to understand that I'm trying to make a point for average users like myself.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #82 –
podunk,

I understand your point exactly. Thanks for sharing your feelings about the .M4A file extension issue. Apple was the first major company to introduce portable players (iPods) that encoded and played files using the MPEG 4 Audio standard (using AAC LC files). They took a bold move in supporting a fairly new standard and making it commonplace to many "average users" like you call yourself. Being the first major mass market MPEG 4 Audio hardware vendor, they set the "standard" by their sheer volume of units distributed of iPod and iTunes.

Since that time of Apple releasing iTunes/iPods, many software programs have appeared with MPEG 4 Audio playback/encoding support. Unfortunately many of them chose to adopt the .MP4 file extension naming format, instead of following what Apple used (.M4A). This has resulted in the dual use of file extension situation we are facing now, and many apps only saving/playing .mp4 files.

As Apple continues to push the use iTunes and iPods (like in the 100 million free songs Pepsi promotion), and now that HP is going to be distributing a copy of iTunes with every consumer PC they sell, iTunes will grow even more popular as will the the use by users of .M4A files. Software makers need to embrace the .M4A file extension and Apple iTunes file/tagging compatibility in my opinion, or else they will have many disgruntled/frustrated users. So software programs supporting BOTH file extensions seems the only logical way to go to solve this already fragmented file extension issue.

I agree with your below statement podunk. It's time to promote MPEG 4 Audio to the world and not quibble over which file extension to use. The fact of the matter is that we have 2 file extensions for the same thing now, so we must live with it.

Its too late for philosophy. Lets deal with reality.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #83 –
Quote
Does it make sense to distinguish between different types of content in MP4 files anyway? There are many different MPEG audio formats that could all be used in an MP4 file, so even for a .m4a file you couldn't be sure whether it carries AAC or something else, and whether it's supported by the associated application or not.

Btw, the forthcoming lossless MPEG-4 ALS codec can also use MP4 files.

I would assume (and please correct me if I am wrong) that software developers could tell the difference of what kind of audio format is included in a .M4A file. Since MPEG 4 Audio is an international standard, all programs should be able to playback any file encoded with that standard.

Right now we have had extensions to the standard recently (HE AAC and the upcoming lossless ALS audio standard) which aren't supported by all players/apps yet. But having a separate .M4A file extension to denote audio is wise as it will prevent players from thinking it has video/other content in it.

It is up to the players to be compliant with the MPEG 4 Audio standard. If a file doesn't play properly (and that file is MPEG 4 standards compatible) it is the fault of the player which is not 100% standards compatible.

Now I understand the case for not supporting MAIN and LTP parts of the standard, as not all players/encoders support them. That is why AAC LC is the lowest common denominator and is support by most  MPEG 4 Audio players and encoders.

But as far as the newer extensions like HE AAC and the soon to be approved ALS standard, future players/encoders should support both of these extensions IMO. These files should use the same .M4A extension, as they are all MPEG 4 Audio. It is up to the MPEG 4 Audio player software to properly recognize them and play them back.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #84 –
Quote
I would assume (and please correct me if I am wrong) that software developers could tell the difference of what kind of audio format is included in a .M4A file. Since MPEG 4 Audio is an international standard, all programs should be able to playback any file encoded with that standard.

I'm afraid it isn't that simple, since there are many different types of encoded audio and/or video data which can be carried by an MP4 file, but indeed an application should be able to recognize the type of data. Unfortunately there are so many possibilities that it's simply unpossible for a single application to support them all, even in the case of MPEG-4 audio, which is more than AAC.

For example, an MP4 file can contain various data streams, some of them may be audio. If a particular stream is MPEG-4 audio (could be MPEG-1/2 audio as well), this is indicated by a specific ObjectTypeIndication value (= 0x40), but then it could still be AAC Main, ACC LC, AAC scalable, TwinVQ, CELP, HVXC, ..., which is indicated by another AudioObjectType value.

A conclusion like "an MPEG-4 player has to playback any kind of MPEG-4 material" is therefore not applicable, although it might be desirable...

MP4 or M4a

Reply #85 –
Quote
It is up to the players to be compliant with the MPEG 4 Audio standard. If a file doesn't play properly (and that file is MPEG 4 standards compatible) it is the fault of the player which is not 100% standards compatible.

That's absurd. QuickTime is standards compliant, and still it doesn't support even AAC profiles other than LC, let alone other audio formats part of the MPEG4 codec portfolio.

According to your sentence, a player can only claim MPEG4 compliancy if it supports Visual (Simple (which includes SP and ASP), SC, Core, Main, N-Bit, H264, VRML, JPEG2000, etc), Audio (AAC - all countless profiles: LC, MAIN, LTP, LD, SSR, +HE, +PNS, +PS, +ER... - , BSAC, HXVC, TwinVQ, CELP, Structured Audio, Lossless...) and Systems (MP4 container, BIFS, IPMP (aka DRM), MPEG-J, ESM...)

Obviously, a player doesn't need to support all that to claim compatibility. MPEG would be shooting their own feet if they made such crazy requirement.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #86 –
rjamorim,

My statement was referring to AAC LC and HE AAC only. Note my caveat from the above post:

Now I understand the case for not supporting MAIN and LTP parts of the standard, as not all players/encoders support them. That is why AAC LC is the lowest common denominator and is support by most MPEG 4 Audio players and encoders

So in case I wasn't exactly clear, let me restate what I meant:

An MPEG 4 Audio player shold support AAC LC and HE AAC, including TNS, MS and PNS. Plus in the future it should hopefully support the lossless ALS standard once it is approved by MPEG.

I realize that Main, LTP, etc. support is *not required* in a player. Sorry if I didn't make myself crystal clear of what I meant. Every player should also support HE AAC as that is now part of the standard (an extension to MPEG 4 Audio).

This statement was precipitated by the frustration of WinAmp 5.02's lack on PNS support (it crashes) while all other players seem to handle PNS encoded files OK (or ignore the PNS part). Basically what I'm saying is that you can't call an MPEG 2 player with support for playing .mp4 and .m4a files a true mp4/m4a player. It won't support things like PNS which only appear in the MPEG 4 Audio spec.

Also I believe thet HE AAC support is a *must have* in this day and age, as more people/users start encoding in it (sparked by the popularity of the Nero encoder).

MP4 or M4a

Reply #87 –
Quote
I realize that Main, LTP, etc. support is *not required* in a player.

Not even LC, or HE for that matter, are required.

Quote
Every player should also support HE AAC as that is now part of the standard (an extension to MPEG 4 Audio).


Yes, but that's not required. And you can be compliant without supporting HE AAC.

The KISS DVD player is MPEG4 compliant, and doesn't even support MPEG4 audio or container.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #88 –
Well I agree with you. Even supporting/using the .MP4 file extension is not required, is it? Apple chose to use .M4A instead and they aren't violating the MPEG 4 Audio standard either.

I think what frustrates most end users about MPEG 4 Audio (as an example of this frustration see podunk's posts above in this thread) is that they expect MPEG 4 Audio to "just work". They are used to MP3 files playing in just about *any* MP3 player or device, and are confused and get frustrated that MP4/M4A audio isn't as "player friendly", especially since it has been touted by many big players in the industry as the 'MP3 replacement'.

So here we are with this 'sticky wicket' with two popular file extensions and one audio file container format for MPEG 4 audio. Somehow it must be possible for all players and encoder to play back/encode to EITHER file extension. That is not asking too much for compatibility and user's ease sake, is it? Also I feel we are sort of like back in the infancy days of MP3 audio a bit. All players and encoders should be "user friendly" in my opinion. A M4A/MP4 file that has AAC LC content should play back in *any* mp4/m4a player, since this is what is most popular.

The addition of HE AAC support to players/encoders should become universal also for the benefit of the many users out there. We all know the quality improvements that HE AAC has to offer for low bitrate encoding. But with a limited "AAC LC only" player the user's experience will be less than enjoyable when playing back HE AAC files.

I didn't think that asking for all players and encoders to support both m4a/mp4 file extensions and AAC LC and hopefully soon (HE AAC) was too much to ask. Maybe I'm wrong.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #89 –
I'm not up on all the tools available, but it's my understanding that an MPEG 4 container can hold a lot of different formats. In fact, you could stuff MPEG 1 Layer 3 audio into an MPEG 4 container and it'd be standards compliant, correct?

Just out of curiousity, how would one go about doing this? I'm pretty sure iTunes/iPod won't play it, but I'd like to give it a shot anyway.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #90 –
Quote
I'm not up on all the tools available, but it's my understanding that an MPEG 4 container can hold a lot of different formats. In fact, you could stuff MPEG 1 Layer 3 audio into an MPEG 4 container and it'd be standards compliant, correct?

This issue is currently worked out at MPEG - it's called MP3onMP4. Since it's not finally standardized yet, there is of course no player that supports it.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #91 –
Quote
Since it's not finally standardized yet, there is of course no player that supports it.

Bullshit, foobar2000 plays MPEG-1 Layer3 files in a MP4 container just fine. 

Solaris

MP4 or M4a

Reply #92 –
Quote
Bullshit, foobar2000 plays MPEG-1 Layer3 files in a MP4 container just fine.  

MPEG4ip played MP3 inside MP4 much before Foobar.

MP3 has always been part of the MPEG4 codec portfolio, and lately they have been working on better integrating it with the MP4 container.

MP4 or M4a

Reply #93 –
I'm sorry, obviously I was wrong, but I thought thhat wouldn't be standard compliant yet. Btw, a reply without the "bullshit" would have been much nicer...

MP4 or M4a

Reply #94 –
Quote
Btw, a reply without the "bullshit" would have been much nicer...

Indeed...

MP4 or M4a

Reply #95 –
i see that people are evenly split on this.  i don't know enough to care either way, but i was wondering about one thing.  for future proofing (well, at least as future proof as technology can be) would it be wiser to rip all my cds as mp4 or m4a?  where do you guys think this naming debate will end up?

thanks!

norky

MP4 or M4a

Reply #96 –
Some people prefer .mp4, others like myself prefer .m4a. It is really a personal choice. After all, they are the same MPEG 4 container file format, and any incompatiblity can be resolved via renaming them.

The software developers have recently added the ability to their programs to save/encode using either extensions (user selectable). Most players will play back either extension. The poll results are about evenly split and with Apple pushing M4A and partnering with HP to promote Quicktime/iPods/iTunes, I doubt either M4A or MP4 will stop being used. We are stuck with both and we have to make the best of it. I just think M4A is more descriptive as to what the content is (audio only), and isn't that after all the purpose of a file extension anyway (to denote the content of the file it is attached to)?

MP4 or M4a

Reply #97 –
Quote
I'm sorry, obviously I was wrong, but I thought thhat wouldn't be standard compliant yet. Btw, a reply without the "bullshit" would have been much nicer...

Sorry! 
I just became a little upset, because your statement was totally wrong. You simply had not checked your sources well enough.

Solaris

MP4 or M4a

Reply #98 –
Quote
hehe, Just change .mp3 to .ogg or just delete the extension under Linux,
It will still tell u that .ogg you've renamed is MPEG layer-3

but if under Windows.....................   u know what will happen
Windows will still open Winamp and Winamp doesn't care.


Quote
Thoughts on metadata:

Metadata as filetype and other such thing is a good concept, but it needs more than what exists to implement it properly.
[...]

Looks like you've never used BeOS / Zeta. You should try it.