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Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #25
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Do you think they'll give tax rebates for every CD-R sold that does not eventually have music burnt onto it?

Danish government added a "tax" like this around 1990 on blank MCs and VHS.

A similar "tax" was added to blank CD-R medias a few years ago. Companies can get the money back by filling in a form.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #26
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digital data CD-r/rw ?0.14 per disc
digital audio CD-r/rw ?0.42 per hour
blanc dvd-r/rw ? 1,00 per 4,7 gigabyte
blanco dvd+r/rw ? 0,50 per 4,7 gigabyte


Sorry, but the values on blank CDs are too high, being equal or higher than the cost of the media itself.
DVD blanks prices are falling, and soon 1.00 euro will represent almost 50% of the price tag.
"Jazz washes away the dust of everyday life" (Art Blakey)

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #27
Looks like 2Bdecided had the right idea... "P.S. - hadn't we better wait and see what happens?"  Anyway, this stimulated some interesting discussion (probably on many other message boards as well) and probably some more dislike toward the RIAA... 

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #28
Out of curiosity...can someone in Sweden order CD-R's and HDD's over the internet from another country and avoid such a tax?

I guess there are at least two good things to come out of such a law:

-1- It is now justified to make as many copies of music as you'd like to now because, as others have mentioned, you've already paid to do so.

-2- The recording industry in Sweden can never again complain of piracy and copied music, as they are now being "properly" reimbursed for it.

And how about JoeAverageSwede who needs to buy a HDD for his computer but has never (nor has never wanted) to copy music onto a HDD.  Well, now he's paid extra and accordingly has the rationale to do it, and if he didn't do it, it would be money wasted.  In turn, I wonder if the Swedish government website will also sponsor links to download EAC/LAME/Musepack/Vorbis/Nero/BurnAtOnce/etc., now that they have fully justified/legitimized their citizenry to copy music onto all this media which has been taxed to reimburse their string-holders, the recording industry?

Also, they'll have to follow this with laws against copy protection of CD (and other) media to allow their citizens to receive the proper benefits of their tax investments.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #29
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Also, they'll have to follow this with laws against copy protection of CD (and other) media to allow their citizens to receive the proper benefits of their tax investments


That's true - imagine this:

1. Country has DMCA-like law in place, which explicitly prohibits any kind of copyright protection breaking and making many copy programs illegal

2. Despite of that,  same country applies midle-age taxing scheme, to tax everything assuming that everyone is breaking the law a priori (since they tax everyone)?

3. Since you paid "piracy tax",  does it mean that your possibly illegal material on the hard drive is legitimate, because you compensated someone by paying 100% more for a storage unit?

Isn't this absurd and against many ideas of modern civilization?  Like treating someone as innocent until proven otherwise, positivism,  and so on?  Maybe it works in Sweden, but I am positive that it won't work in the rest of the EU.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #30
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1- It is now justified to make as many copies of music as you'd like to now because, as others have mentioned, you've already paid to do so.

In theory, you're 100% right.
But the "recording" industry doesnt care about costumer rights.
A fine example of it:
In Australia and Canada there is a levy on blank media, but some australians and canadians are complaining because most of the new music discs are being sold which copy protection, despite the extra taxation collected for the benefit of the music industry "losses".

edit: clarification and typo.
"Jazz washes away the dust of everyday life" (Art Blakey)

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #31
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In theory, you're 100% right.
But the industry doesnt care.


Hopefully these issues will eventually be brought to supreme courts to test it against constitutions in many civilized countries.

Music industry != majority of the population

Enforcing the "music industry" rights, and compensating them for their inability to cope with the development of science  is equal to "protecting minority and harming majority"  and, in addition to the points I've made about incompatibility with copyright and crime laws,  this is not going to stand any trial in sureme  court.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #32
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I've just been on the phone with the president of CopySwede, Gun Magnusson to clarify the whole deal.

The discussion confirmed the the site http://idg.se are simply writing complete nonsense without any grounds at all. The Mrs. Magnusson was to say the least very disappointed in this article and has contacted the writer to inform him of his misinformative article.

First of all, read my previous post. As you say, me an Gun Magnusson has been in contact and I would definetly not say that the article is misinformative.

First of all she pointed out that the numbers are all wrong. They are not. Copyswede calculates taxes excluding VAT and consumer oriented magazines including VAT (in Sweden 25 precent).

Secondly. You mention that the raise should be 25 percent. That is for analog media such as audio and video cassettes. Digital media (as the proposal states right now) has much higher raise.

As for the 800 percent raise. I do not think that would ever happen - especially since the fees are negotiated between Copyswede and the manufacturers of digital media. Noone will benefit from 800 percent raise of copyright fees. As I said - the articles primary purpose is to illustrate worst case scenario.

But a raise will come.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #33
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Also, they'll have to follow this with laws against copy protection of CD (and other) media to allow their citizens to receive the proper benefits of their tax investments


That's true - imagine this:

1. Country has DMCA-like law in place, which explicitly prohibits any kind of copyright protection breaking and making many copy programs illegal

2. Despite of that,  same country applies midle-age taxing scheme, to tax everything assuming that everyone is breaking the law a priori (since they tax everyone)?

3. Since you paid "piracy tax",  does it mean that your possibly illegal material on the hard drive is legitimate, because you compensated someone by paying 100% more for a storage unit?

Isn't this absurd and against many ideas of modern civilization?  Like treating someone as innocent until proven otherwise, positivism,  and so on?  Maybe it works in Sweden, but I am positive that it won't work in the rest of the EU.

Exactly!  The simple concept of punishing everyone for what only some people (and likely a vast minority) are doing wrong.  Hence justifying the concept of "If I am punished for it, shouldn't I at least get to do it?"

If you have to do the time, then you get to do the crime...   

But anyway, it sounds like (according to MTRH) that the article may be FUD anyway.  I hope so.  (I don't live in Sweden, but I'd oppose injustice against anyone.)

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #34
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...RIAA... 

The last A in the RIAA stands for America. Last time I checked, Sweden was in Europe. Sweden, Denmark and most other countries have their own organisations to screw their own citizens. We have no need for American help in this particular field.

BTW, the Danish tax on CD-R is 0,50-1,00 euro per CD. That's why I order mine in Germany; this way I pay Danish VAT and German tax. If I go get them in Germany, I can get them even cheaper by paying VAT in Germany too.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #35
Emanuel:
Please define digital media;
CD-R is still based per minute.

Have you read the 600pages long divided by two pdfs text where the definitions are?

I just can't take Mrs. Magnussons opinion lightly, she had valid points and you have your journalistic interests which makes you a less credible and objective person.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #36
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1- It is now justified to make as many copies of music as you'd like to now because, as others have mentioned, you've already paid to do so.

In theory, you're 100% right.
But the industry doesnt care.
In Australia and Canada there is a levy on blank media, but some australians and canadians are complaining because most of the new music discs are being sold which copy protection, despite the extra taxation collected for the benefit of the industry.

That's what I'd fear would happen in a real-world scenario.  Doesn't this seem like the actions of a dying, cornered animal?  Because of internet-based streaming audio and new approaches toward even paid music-sharing on legal distribution sites, the recording industries of the world seem to be becoming less viable as required entities for bringing music to the people of the world?

We (the people of the world) don't need them anymore, they can in turn see their inevitable end coming, and so they're scratching to stay alive by any means possible, moral or not, using their vast money and political power to accomplish the task.

Edit: Clarification re: "recording industries"

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #37
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no, I said "Me" as in "I".. have been in contact with Mrs. Magnusson - just now.

I understand what you say.
And I say "me" as in "I" as well. That means we both have been in contact with her.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #38
Emanuel, I misread and I rewrote my text, I'm sorry about that, please read the latter. I'd be happy to read your idea of the whole, since from what I've gathered now from various sources the article was misinformative and should be treated with a touch of sceptisism.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #39
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...RIAA... 

The last A in the RIAA stands for America. Last time I checked, Sweden was in Europe. Sweden, Denmark and most other countries have their own organisations to screw their own citizens. We have no need for American help in this particular field.

Hey man, whatever it's called (RI-EU?  )... it's still "the recording industry" (ok that's more accurate, I guess... whatever).

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #40
Well, the fact is that Sweden is one of the countries with highest % of people online in whole Europe - majority of them is on broadband  I would say that filesharing is quite popular there ... oh, where isn't

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #41
The thing that makes me angry about all this 'piracy' FUD is that although the pundits in the software and music industries stand up and scream about all the millions of dollars being lost each year, the real fact is that no one really has the first idea if they are actually loosing any money at all, at least in the domestic markets.

What no one can prove is whether if the pirated version of the software/music track had not been available, would it have resulted in a normal retail sale? Both these industries use this argument as justification for falling sales or targets not being met. It would also be more than interesting to know whether such pirating would even take place if the software and music were priced at a more realistic level in the first place.
John
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My compiles and utilities are at http://www.rarewares.org/

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #42
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Hey man, whatever it's called (RI-EU?  )... it's still "the recording industry" (ok, that's more accurate perhaps -- whatever).

In Denmark, we have the so-called AntiPirateGroup, and I'd say they're at least as annoying as the RIAA. Their scare tactics have been so effective that I know no-one who actually shares anything on a peer to peer network. Denmark is a small area, and therefore relatively easy to control. I personally dislike the fact that they behave as if they were the police - they even do some things the police aren't allowed to do.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #43
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The thing that makes me angry about all this 'piracy' FUD is that although the pundits in the software and music industries stand up and scream about all the millions of dollars being lost each year, the real fact is that no one really has the first idea if they are actually loosing any money at all, at least in the domestic markets.

The only statistics I know of in this area stems from Universities in the U.S. in the days of Napster. It turned out that the record sales rose in the areas surrounding the universities; more than in other areas. Music is a luxury, and it is quite likely that the drop in sales is caused by the economic downturn.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #44
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The future of music distribution is cheap internet service on pay-basis, and there is nothing that will stop it - even overpricing all media. It will happen sooner or later, and the "industry" is going to shed some already useless jobs for good - and give more space for creative thought and people.

Maybe CDs and DVDs will be less popular, but to think that the future of music sales is 100% download and burn (legal or not) is to seriously misjudge human nature.

People like collecting things, and people like having the "real" item - to buy, to sell, to collect, to save, to treasure, to brag about, to look at the art work etc etc etc.

People also distrust computers. They see them as fickle, and unreliable. For many people in many circumstances it's much more convenient to buy a CD than to download it, even if they have the option.


So whilst some people certainly will buy and download their music on-line, this isn't the end for CDs or DVDs. They will be around for a long time.


I like the idea of renting access to the entire back catalogue of a record label (or all record labels?) for a party or something*, but it would probably just make me go out and buy more CDs!

Cheers,
David.

* - that's a proposed business model for sometime in the future, when traceable content watermarking, and player-side detectors make it unlikely that you'd put such content onto a P2P network, or even be able to record it permanently for your own use on the then "current" equipment.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #45
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Emanuel:
I just can't take Mrs. Magnussons opinion lightly, she had valid points and you have your journalistic interests which makes you a less credible and objective person.

MTRH,

If I understood correctly, Mrs. Magnusson is actually a president of that copyright-enforcing body "CopySwede" which consists of, among others,  members of the music industry?

And, according to the annual report - http://www.copyswede.se/english/summary01.pdf  the biggest renumeration they got in 2001 was from blank tape levy (almost 50%, this includes digital media fees)

Which makes me think that:

- They are protecting the rights and interests of music industry
- Direct taxing increase will increase their annual income, which already is near 50% of ther annual income

Based on these two conclusions,  I just wouldn't take her opinion as "non biased" because she represents the one side of the story - and that is definitely not the "consumer" side which is a huge majority.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #46
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* - that's a proposed business model for sometime in the future, when traceable content watermarking, and player-side detectors make it unlikely that you'd put such content onto a P2P network, or even be able to record it permanently for your own use on the then "current" equipment.


Actually, direct watermarking of the content with personal data would be the best idea and it would prevent illegal spreading because data would be traceable to the identity level.

This is the way that research should go, instead of robbing the whole society.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #47
Something different: Should this thread really remain in "Validated news"?
I mean, there has been some light shed on the issue and all written in the first post isn't really true. Like:
1. 800% is sort of worst case, even the author of the article says that it won't happen.
2. Nothing has been decided. The department of justice has only presented a suggestion. This has to be passed by the parliament first.

But from the post, it clearly states that it has been decided already and that it will be 800%...
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As of January 2004 all CDRs and other optical storage medias will have 800% raised taxes to compensate the losses of the music industry.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #48
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Based on these two conclusions,  I just wouldn't take her opinion as "non biased" because she represents the one side of the story - and that is definitely not the "consumer" side which is a huge majority.

Well, I wouldn't say that everything written on idg.se is non-biased either. I have seen quite a lot of articles on that site that are quite horrific in terms of objectivity.

Swedish government goes crazy!

Reply #49
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* - that's a proposed business model for sometime in the future, when traceable content watermarking, and player-side detectors make it unlikely that you'd put such content onto a P2P network, or even be able to record it permanently for your own use on the then "current" equipment.


Actually, direct watermarking of the content with personal data would be the best idea and it would prevent illegal spreading because data would be traceable to the identity level.

This is the way that research should go, instead of robbing the whole society.

I second that emotion wholeheartedly.  In fact, I've made reference to it before as the direction that recording industries should pursue instead of punishing us "legit" copiers who only want to play the music we paid for in our car's HDDs (or head units via CD-R), from our portable (notebook) PC's HDD's, and on our portable encoded-music players.

David made a point I agree with also in people wanting something tangible to hold/touch/collect.  Personally, this is one of the top reasons I don't download my music.  I like having the physical CD and everything that comes with it...it's its own backup to an extent, you often get lyrics and nice artwork, you get something which you and your family and friends can thumb through on a shelf.  When someone asks, "So, what kind of music do you have?", there's something more elegant about a row of CDs on a shelf than pointing to a PC monitor.

But of course, I rip/encode for portability.  I never casually listen to an actual CD since -1- I have the music already residing on convenient devices in encoded form, and -2- my CDs are my backups.  If I lose an encoding, I re-rip and re-encode...no need to risk handling the CD for casual play.

But these are all concepts too logical for a misguided money-hungry industry to understand and cater to.  Punish us all...anyone with an encoded music file is the devil, right?

 
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