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Topic: Portable possibilty for MPC (Read 15253 times) previous topic - next topic
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Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #50
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man, for God's sake, get informed before you make assumptions!

LGPL and GPL have nothing to do with patents! You can easily have LGPL/GPL'd code that is patented. Look at Lame, Faac/Faad, XviD, hdot264...


Sorry dude.. i've said before that i'm not really up on all this.. and i wont be.. I appreciate your guidance.. i meant to say that the LGPLd.. whatever will help lessen their worries for copyrights, as they said above... and as i believe you then replied to say that being LGPLd helps..

I am just encouraged by his eagerness at this stage without knowing these facts.. i just hope we can mould the sourcecode into something suitable to make it easier..

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #51
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and as i believe you then replied to say that being LGPLd helps..

Being LGPLd helps about copyright. The copyright owner of the code can't forbid you using his code if he licensed it under the GPL or the LGPL. The catch is, you must keep the same license, unless you rewrite all the code. (If you rewrite, you become the copyright owner and then you can choose whatever license you want)

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #52
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still no reply from Frank, isn't he very active on these forums anymore?!?


He kinda stopped posting after I called him an Ass.

Frank made quite a few posts after this and was still active for awhile.  He's simply been less active in the audio scene period in the last few months.  Maybe he's just too busy with Real Life stuff, or maybe he doesn't have as much interest in audio anymore (doubtful).

If you really want to get a response from him, your best bet is probably to email him.

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #53
Ok well i've emailed Frank, and Andree.. Frank has gotten back to me about some stuff...

I've also updated the Rio guys with the weekends discussion here... here is the result..

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> Firstly the code that you speak of in the integer decoder is apparently
> LGPLd, does this help matters!?

If it is LGPLed, this isn't made clear; the LGPL does require a header in
each source file I believe, noting the status of the code - that definitely
isn't there in this case.

We also have a problem - we cannot use LGPLed code. LGPL, even though it
doesn't require release of other source that is linked with it (as a
library, at least, which is probably not how we'd have to use it as we
statically link for size/efficiency), clashes with the current Microsoft WMA
licensing policy.

This is one reason that we've had to use eCos 1.3 (which comes under the Red
Hat eCos Public License) as opposed to eCos 2.0 (which is GPL'ed with a
specific exception for linking with proprietary applications).

We can use FLAC and OGG as they're under a BSD license.


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>Another issue is that if patents were deemed to be payable on then is it
not
>standard for the patents to apply to the media encoders, not decoders!?

That's not necessarily true - and we'd have to be pretty sure that we
weren't about to open ourselves up to litigation down the road when someone
decided that they'd sue us after all. If any patents (that we weren't
already licensing as part of, for example, the MP3 license from
Thompson-Frauhofer) were involved we'd need to tie the issues down first -
and get written exemptions if possible.


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No, our code doesn't work in that way. We don't write decoders here, just
player software; also, we don't have source for WMA (and won't be able to
get it either). Our MP3 is licensed from ARM (no source), OGG/FLAC we have
the source for, obviously.


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>"Fast seeking is a problem. The current WinAMP-Plugin uses a lookup table
>to reduce seek time when seek is multiple done.
>This table eats a lot of space (4.5 KB/min playtime) and is currently the
>only dynamic allocated tbale in the WinAMP plugin."

Mmm, not good for a limited memory player (and some nutters put 15 hour MP3s
on our players...)

We generally need at least semi-accurate seeking. With VBR files we have to
work with what we have, ie the 100-entry Xing header (though ISTR the VBRI
frauhofer one was more accurate?) and interpolation.

This is used for fast forwarding (it speeds up and can be jumping minutes at
a time) and things like bookmarks, which are (on other codecs) sample
accurate.


Basically license/patent/license... its a real biggy

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #54
Thanks for your efforts, Jrbamford!

Even though prospects look bleak, keep us informed if anything happens.

cheers,
Halcyon

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #55
no problems.. this is a big stumbling block though.. we need to find out if a standard mp3 license covers for use of its subband technology in MPC.. if it does this helps.. we'll need it in writing somewhere.. as for the copyright issue... we need a better licensed fixed point mp3 decoder source to base this on!?!? not really familiar with the code...  what license does MAD have if any?!? is this an option?!?

The other option, and one i'll contact Frank about, and Andree again (still not heard from the latter  ) is do we really want to kick up a fuss about this.. I'll happily contact the patent holders and try to discuss this with them if no one else will but I am a little worried about them then becoming interested in MPC, finding their patents are being infringed (yes i know this is unlikely) and wanting to take it up with MPC...

However unlikely those who have the say with the format need to make this decision before i'll even go near it.. I dont even know if discussions will be possible.. I am trying to get the details of the license they have (be nice if possible to get a copy of it, maybe what we need is hidden inside the contract/text) ...

Code issue wise, hopefully c.b.2000 will help out.. its the same architecture as what he wrote the fixed point decoder for so thats gotta help... although as it says above.. code is a minor issue... its all about the license/copyrights...

What do people think.. especially on the issue of do we bother looking into this, for fear of awakening a horrible beast to hassle the MPC format.. or is it needed to get this taken seriously right now..

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #56
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no problems.. this is a big stumbling block though.. we need to find out if a standard mp3 license covers for use of its subband technology in MPC.. if it does this helps.. we'll need it in writing somewhere.. as for the copyright issue... we need a better licensed fixed point mp3 decoder source to base this on!?!? not really familiar with the code...  what license does MAD have if any?!? is this an option?!?

The other option, and one i'll contact Frank about, and Andree again (still not heard from the latter  ) is do we really want to kick up a fuss about this.. I'll happily contact the patent holders and try to discuss this with them if no one else will but I am a little worried about them then becoming interested in MPC, finding their patents are being infringed (yes i know this is unlikely) and wanting to take it up with MPC...

However unlikely those who have the say with the format need to make this decision before i'll even go near it.. I dont even know if discussions will be possible.. I am trying to get the details of the license they have (be nice if possible to get a copy of it, maybe what we need is hidden inside the contract/text) ...

Code issue wise, hopefully c.b.2000 will help out.. its the same architecture as what he wrote the fixed point decoder for so thats gotta help... although as it says above.. code is a minor issue... its all about the license/copyrights...

What do people think.. especially on the issue of do we bother looking into this, for fear of awakening a horrible beast to hassle the MPC format.. or is it needed to get this taken seriously right now..

Well to be honest if the patent holders did a simple google they'd find this forum near the top of the list.  So it's probably a case of being too late for them not to be aware, assuming they are asserting their patents (which seems unlikely)

So i'd say go for it.

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #57
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Well to be honest if the patent holders did a simple google they'd find this forum near the top of the list. So it's probably a case of being too late for them not to be aware, assuming they are asserting their patents (which seems unlikely)

So i'd say go for it. 


yes.. maybe... but still do worry a bit... I doubt Andree will be contactable so i'll have to ask Frank... getting input from those involved like Dibrom, Case etc would also be nice...

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #58
I'm under the impression that, even if MP3 uses the same algorithims MPC uses, the MP3 license won't apply.

Reason:

By determination of the MPEG, patent owners must license these patents on a "fair and reasonable basis", but for iso compliant applications only. That means that, if the application isn't ISO compliant (and Musepack obviously isn't), they can charge whatever they want for the license or not license it at all and sue anyone who tries to use their technology.

Now, you would have to check if the Rio guys licensed the algorithms for ISO applications decoding only (what would require a separate license for Musepack), or if they licensed the algorithms for any usage.

Regards;

Roberto.

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #59
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It'd be great if the numbers in there could be bumped up to something that would make hardware manufacturers stand up and take notice... if we had 100,000 people interested in hardware with MPC capability that'd have a lot of clout... then again, do we have 100,000 people who even know of MPC ?!?


Probably not 100,000, but at least a few thousand for sure just judging by the traffic on this site and some of the other MPC related sites.  Maybe even tens of thousands, though that might be pushing it.

just wanna say whats on my mind

they all say that the economy is bad nowadays and stuff like, many people don't have work etc etc , why doesn't anybody kind of a risk cooperate with the inventors of mpc to make an allround portable player who plays mpc, mp3 and many more, i'd guess many people wouldn't dare to pay $100 -$150 more and have a player who plays mpc, it's kinda a risk to set up a company but hey, what if it's works... bill gates also took alot of riskes back in the past and look @ him now, one the richest persons in the world  (i guess)

i don't want to blame anyone, believe me, but i just wanted to say whats on my mind

ps sorry my english 

edit  typos

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #60
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they all say that the economy is bad nowadays and stuff like, many people don't have work etc etc , why doesn't anybody kind of a risk cooperate with the inventors of mpc to make an allround portable player who plays mpc, mp3 and many more, i'd guess many people wouldn't dare to pay $100 -$150 more and have a player who plays mpc, it's kinda a risk to set up a company but hey, what if it's works... bill gates also took alot of riskes back in the past and look @ him now, one the richest persons in the world   (i guess)

Well, it's exactly because the economy is bad that people don't want to take any risks. The hardware companies would have to spend money in order to support MPC (paying engineers, paying beta testers, maybe even paying a petent hunt to be sure patents won't bite them later).

Then, they would have to forward these losses to the customer, increasing the costs of teh product. The consumer would get pissed (because the economy is bad for him too and he has no money to throw away). So he won't buy that product. And the manufacturer will go bankrupt. That's a worst case scenarion, and on times like this the companies work with that kind of scenario.

Now, the Bill Gates analogy isn't really a good one. I think the biggest risk he ever took was lying to IBM about the great Operational System he developed and that simply didn't exist at that time (you can google around for more info). Besides, back then the economy wasn't bad, so people weren't so afraid of taking risks.

BTW, yes, he is the richest person in the World.

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #61
i just want to reply this

if somebody with good understanding of mpc and the code and stuff like that ( not me ) wants to make big money now, just because the economy is bad big companies won't take the risk so they won't patent any system who support mpc,
makes an mpc player and take all the rights and patents on his side, man , wauwwww, ( i know i'm just dreaming) but i think somebody could make alot of money with it, it's a product that has potential in it, why make the 500ste mp3 player on the market that everybody has, generate an mpc player with compability to play mp3 etc and get a patent ( i know you'll need big time money for this) and many people would die to get such a player and the wouldn't dare to spend another $100 extra ( not that much, but still.. i know)



friendly greetz koen

native language = dutsch so sorry if i make some typos

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #62
btw i payed for my portable mp3 player ( converted) like $75 and for my radio mp3-compatible ( philips az2558) $210 , now i see iRiver i guess, not sure, sells portable mp3 players for more than $220

now tell me, economy bad?

if someone spends over $200 to ( in my eyes) just a portable and i think sound quality is the same with a cheaper one , and i pay $210 for a very good boombox 2*10 W RMS , 2*20W MPO with philips expanium technology ( firmware),
is the iRiver than just a gadget or ....

i don't want to blame or hurt anyone believe me, just my opinion

greetz koen

Portable possibilty for MPC

Reply #63
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He kinda stopped posting after I called him an Ass.