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Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Hi everyone,
I'm planning to convert my whole audio CD archive (200 CD) to wavpack lossy around 350k.
As I read here long time ago, this bitrate should provide perfect quality for "normal" music (also for single transcode to lossy for portable use), but I also read that it is realiable to use -s0 switch (noise shaping off) on higher bitrate like 350k+.

I think that shadowking (maybe you will read this ;)) mentioned before that  -s0 switch is more stable than default setting on some samples.

I was wondering is this still the case with new v5.1 and is setting like -b350hx enough for single transcoding to opus/vorbis around 96k for "normal" music?

Best regards,


Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #1
in wavpack-lossy keys -h, -hh increase size, use -f; x=from 1 to 6, 1 by default; imho, only mp3 does not enough 350k for transparency.
why wavpack? maybe musepack -standart will be enough?

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #2
Hi, Shinichi

My suggested settings:

Wavpack v4.41 or below : Use -S0.

Wavpack v4.50 to present: Use defaults (dynamic noise shaping is enabled for sample rate <96khz )

Suggested bitrates  / switches for archive without .wvc:

 -b350..400 (-h -x levels 4 .. 6)

Suggestions: below settings are based on quality as the most important criteria and doesn't sacrifice it . They are different to the -b384x3 suggestion in the wavpack manual which is expected to be used with the correction files.

Encoding parameters without -c / .wvc: ( Use nothing less - do not take any shortcuts)

-b400hx6 -- slower encode extra headroom
-b384hx4 -- faster encode and slightly more economical



wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #3
in wavpack-lossy keys -h, -hh increase size, use -f; x=from 1 to 6, 1 by default; imho, only mp3 does not enough 350k for transparency.
why wavpack? maybe musepack -standart will be enough?

Wavpack works great with the correction files 256..320k . I use 265k (-b3)  for portable and on the PC the .wvc makes playback lossless. It can also work well 'near-lossless' without the correction files at bitrate around 400k or more -- Say you are fine with 400k files on all devices etc or transcode them to lossy of choice.
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #4
.
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #5

Encoding parameters without -c / .wvc: ( Use nothing less - do not take any shortcuts)

-b400hx6 -- slower encode extra headroom
-b384hx4 -- faster encode and slightly more economical


Hi shadowking, thanks a lot!
hx4-6 are really slow and I would like to avoid it if possible.
What if I go slightly higher in bitrate? Let's say something like -b450hx1-3 or similar?
Do I still need x4-6 in 450k range?
My goal is to create two quality archives which combined together should be around half size of a lossless file (~900-1000k). ;)
For desktop/hi-fi will be high bitrate wavpack lossy (350-400k) and 96-112k opus/vorbis for portable use. ;)
I'm aiming at maximum efficiency while reataining high quality lossy + portable archive, if possible.

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #6
I'm aiming at maximum efficiency while reataining high quality lossy + portable archive, if possible.
than...
Wavpack works great with the correction files 256..320k . I use 265k (-b3)  for portable and on the PC the .wvc makes playback lossless.[...]
-hhb320cx6/-fb256c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #7

Encoding parameters without -c / .wvc: ( Use nothing less - do not take any shortcuts)

-b400hx6 -- slower encode extra headroom
-b384hx4 -- faster encode and slightly more economical


Hi shadowking, thanks a lot!
hx4-6 are really slow and I would like to avoid it if possible.
What if I go slightly higher in bitrate? Let's say something like -b450hx1-3 or similar?
Do I still need x4-6 in 450k range?
My goal is to create two quality archives which combined together should be around half size of a lossless file (~900-1000k). ;)
For desktop/hi-fi will be high bitrate wavpack lossy (350-400k) and 96-112k opus/vorbis for portable use. ;)
I'm aiming at maximum efficiency while reataining high quality lossy + portable archive, if possible.

You could try -b450x4 as that still benefits from -x4 while being faster.  -hx3 is an alternative a bit faster to encode ..  I still have to consider this no longer a quality 1st approach , but acceptable in the context of speed and the bitrate inflation. The effect if any should be minimal or not audiable.
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #8
I'm aiming at maximum efficiency while reataining high quality lossy + portable archive, if possible.
than...
Wavpack works great with the correction files 256..320k . I use 265k (-b3)  for portable and on the PC the .wvc makes playback lossless.[...]
-hhb320cx6/-fb256c

Thanks, this is also an option for consideration but I think that I will go lower with bitrate for both archives. ;)

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #9

You could try -b450x4 as that still benefits from -x4 while being faster.  -hx3 is an alternative a bit faster to encode ..  I still have to consider this no longer a quality 1st approach , but acceptable in the context of speed and the bitrate inflation. The effect if any should be minimal or not audiable.

If x4 setting is better, even in normal mode, than hx3, I will use it. ;)

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #10

You could try -b450x4 as that still benefits from -x4 while being faster.  -hx3 is an alternative a bit faster to encode ..  I still have to consider this no longer a quality 1st approach , but acceptable in the context of speed and the bitrate inflation. The effect if any should be minimal or not audiable.

If x4 setting is better, even in normal mode, than hx3, I will use it. ;)

On average, hx3 compresses slightly better and that should translate to a bit less noise in lossy (though it very close to -x4).  There are some rare cases where the favour goes to -x4 (artificial music etc)
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #11

On average, hx3 compresses slightly better and that should translate to a bit less noise in lossy (though it very close to -x4).  There are some rare cases where the favour goes to -x4 (artificial music etc)

After a lot of thinking about your suggestions, I've decided to go with a setting: -b450hx4. It's slow but I think it's worth it.
I was thinking that I'm going to encode my music archive once and keep it forever so it should be done right. :)
What could be worst case scenario with this setting if I encounter hard-to-encode /difficult song?

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #12

On average, hx3 compresses slightly better and that should translate to a bit less noise in lossy (though it very close to -x4).  There are some rare cases where the favour goes to -x4 (artificial music etc)

After a lot of thinking about your suggestions, I've decided to go with a setting: -b450hx4. It's slow but I think it's worth it.
I was thinking that I'm going to encode my music archive once and keep it forever so it should be done right. :)
What could be worst case scenario with this setting if I encounter hard-to-encode /difficult song?

Good choice. The theoretical difference in normal music is zero IMO . In artificial sample like very HF noise / sines etc, there is a very slight possibility of a tiny change in background noise. But taking into account the bitrate and the hx4 + DN Shaping, probably close to zero on that too. You need amplify a HF noise by a magnitude, and IMO that is a risk for physical and equipment damage.
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #13
Also, On Windows you can use -l switch to enable low priority the the wavpack.exe thread, If your going use your PC while encoding. I think even -hx4 is not that slow on a modern cpu- its twice as fast as hx6.

From the manual:

 -l = run at low priority (for smoother multitasking)

This option can be used (in Windows only) to force WavPack to run at a low priority and is handy for doing large WavPack batch conversions in the background.
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #14
Thanks a lot!
Didn't know about -l switch. It will come in handy.
I also done a few CD conversions using this setting today (-b450hx4). It's not that slow. I'm getting 40x realtime on average in foobar2000. So, about 2 minutes per cd album.
I thought it will be far worse. :)
As for those rare cases when a difficult sample may show up, this tiny noise difference will probably go unnoticed in normal listening. All things considered, pretty good IMO.
And still half size of a lossless file. :)
Thanks again for suggestions. That helped a lot.

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #15
@shadowking
I have one more question:
If I want faster encode while still retaining relatively high quality and smaller file size, what setting would be good compromise between speed and quality?
I was thinking to use something like: -b350hx.
Is that good enough for normal music? I don't want to go any lower that that. ;)

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #16
I'd consider hx2 , much faster than hx3 not much slower than hx
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

 

Re: Wavpack lossy - Noise shaping off (v5.1)

Reply #17
Ok. Thanks a lot. :)

 
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