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Topic: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible (Read 6819 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Upscaling MP3 to DSD
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Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #25
Being generous, 48/14 will be adequate.  Now it’s Bob’s job to prove me wrong.

Now there's a idea
Maybe BrilliantBob could do a listening test between 48/14bit & 192/32bit files, and come back with some results.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #26
Somewhat telling that the OP hasn't returned to defend his position, however:

...to have the sound as analogue as possible...

Do you seriously believe there are degrees of analog? Digital vs analog is a clear-cut, black & white distinction. Can something be "slightly digital" or "mostly analog"? No, it either is analog or it is not analog. The only way to keep a recording "as analog as possible" is to USE an analog recording system.
or, you know, just play it. sound waves in air are not digital.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #27
Do you seriously believe there are degrees of analog? Digital vs analog is a clear-cut, black & white distinction. Can something be "slightly digital" or "mostly analog"? No, it either is analog or it is not analog. The only way to keep a recording "as analog as possible" is to USE an analog recording system.
Is there anything correct here? I don't think so.
High Voltage socket-nose-avatar

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #28
Pulse width modulation?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

 

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #29
Somewhat telling that the OP hasn't returned to defend his position, however:

...to have the sound as analogue as possible...

Do you seriously believe there are degrees of analog? Digital vs analog is a clear-cut, black & white distinction. Can something be "slightly digital" or "mostly analog"? No, it either is analog or it is not analog. The only way to keep a recording "as analog as possible" is to USE an analog recording system.

Certainly you can capture a saturated analog sound digitally.

How many bits and what sample rate you need to achieve that is a different discussion.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #30
Certainly you can capture an unsaturated analog sound as well.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #31
where art thou? BrilliantBob
Came back
Why no more replies? :(

Maybe someone can record this message to vinyl, then record that in DSD 5.6 Mhz 1bit & then convert it to WAV 192/32bit float,
so BrilliantBob will hear Us?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #32
Just a question on the OP's soundstage claim.  Of course we all know that it is not possible for analog playback (especially vinyl) to have better sound stage than digital as the sound stage perception is part of the mastering using a combination of the two channels, and digital stereo separation is perfect. 

However I have noticed on cheaper T/T cart combinations there does seem to be a somewhat artificial widening of the sound stage.  It's hard to describe, almost like the fake surround sound some soundbars put out which of course, DSPs can emulate if that is one's thing.

I have never given this much thought but I presume it is due to phase shifts, which vinyl playback always has but more so with less well engineered or correctly aligned set-ups.  Any thoughts on this?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #33
If I take a look closer to my new Cds (EAC accurately ripped and so on), I can't understand why the "factory default" CD sound is likely flat, louder and way beyond the full scale (0 dB). All right, sounds good for a boombox but for my PC Hi-Fi system it's a little bit more harshly. I have to de-amplify to -12dB and then to make some compression and normalization to -3dB to get an acceptable sound from CD. I tested CDs from various artists, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Genesis, Alan Parsons, The Band, Fleetwood Mac, Manfred Mann's Earth Band and all sounds are way beyond the full scale (0 dB). Is this a CD standard? Not happend when I record the same LPs from new vinyls to DSD 5.6 MHz and then converted to wav 196/32, 96/32, 48/32 or 44/16.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #34
[...] sounds good for a boombox but for my PC Hi-Fi system it's a little bit more harshly. [...]
use equalizer, Luk Bob!

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #35
and way beyond the full scale (0 dB).
Measured how? What is your playback chain?

If you are making some strange stuff that runs your signals into digital clipping, then that should be easy to fix.
High Voltage socket-nose-avatar

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #36
and way beyond the full scale (0 dB).
  Measured how? What is your playback chain?
If you are making some strange stuff that runs your signals into digital clipping, then that should be easy to fix.

 This is how it looks in Adobe Audition 3.0 the original CD wav, EAC Accurately Ripped (this example does not clip; is up to 0.1dB from full scale):

My PC playback chain is cheap but output good sound:
                - Intel Skylake PCH-H - High Definition Audio Controller
                - HD Audio Codec RealTek ALC887 v6.0.1.8158 (default format 24bits, 192000Hz, Studio Quality)
                - Software Equalizer APO 1.2 with preamp and loudness correction
                - WMP 12 with all effects disabled
                - Microlab M 910 2.1 speakers with true frequency range: 30 Hz-20000 Hz, max SPL 80dB, room correction

If the wav does not clip in AA probably something is wrong in my playback chain (too much treble in equalizer).

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #37
If you "pre-amplify" or EQ above 0 dB, then you get above 0 dB, that is not so strange. But how did you measure > 0 dB?

And, given that you do so, why are you touting 192/32 rather than fixing the problems you are creating?
High Voltage socket-nose-avatar

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #38
And, given that you do so, why are you touting 192/32 rather than fixing the problems you are creating?
Indeed!

Let’s stick with the topic at hand: 192/32 being needed for digital to sound more like analog, specifically the digitization of vinyl.

CD mastering and what waveforms look like in AA3 or any other software are completely irrelevant.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #39
Quote
However I have noticed on cheaper T/T cart combinations there does seem to be a somewhat artificial widening of the sound stage.  It's hard to describe, almost like the fake surround sound some soundbars put out which of course, DSPs can emulate if that is one's thing.

I have never given this much thought but I presume it is due to phase shifts, which vinyl playback always has but more so with less well engineered or correctly aligned set-ups.  Any thoughts on this?
If the cartridge is wired wrong the left & right channels can be out-of-phase (one channel inverted).   You'll get the same "weird widening" effect if you reverse the wires to one speaker (or if you invert one channel in an audio editor).    You'll also notice a loss of bass as the bass soundwaves cancel, and if you mix-down to mono (electrically or digitally) you'll get a "vocal removal"  effect where the "center channel" information (the information common to left & right) gets canceled..

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #40
Yes there are foibles with vinyl playback.

Does their digitization need 192/32 in order for them to be recreated transparently to the listener?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #41
Quote
If I take a look closer to my new Cds (EAC accurately ripped and so on), I can't understand why the "factory default" CD sound is likely flat, louder and way beyond the full scale (0 dB).
The "sound" is determined by the producer, recording engineer, mixing engineer, mastering engineer, etc.    Don't blame the CD format if you don't like the sound.

And CDs don't go "beyond" 0dB.   They hard-clip at 0dB.   There are commercial CDs that are clipped, or just hard-limited and compressed to death.   That's the modern-popular constantly-loud style...  Don't blame the format!

Sometimes the amplitude is decreased after limiting & compression (to match the perceived volume the various track on a CD) so a hard-limited (or clipped) recording may not hit 0dB on the CD. 

BTW - If you make a vinyl recording from a clipped file the wave shape changes and you won't see flat-topped waveforms and the waveform "looks better' when you digitize it..   The crest factor will also increase which can give a better measured/calculated dynamic range and a better looking  waveform and that makes some people think vinyl record has better dynamics, even if the record and CD are made from the same master.    But making/playing a vinyl record doesn't remove the distortion or increase the sound of the dynamics.

Of course the vinyl recording will sound different  because of it's limitations and some people may prefer the sound of the vinyl.

Quote
have to de-amplify to -12dB and then to make some compression and normalization to -3dB to get an acceptable sound from CD. I tested CDs from various artists, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Genesis, Alan Parsons, The Band, Fleetwood Mac, Manfred Mann's Earth Band
And ,I like to use the "Hall" effect when I play music on my home theater system.    Some people like to crank-up the bass...    (I've used my speakers in a dance hall a couple of times, and I like the way they sounded in there too, without the artificial effects.)

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #42
If you make a vinyl recording from a clipped file the wave shape changes and you won't see flat-topped waveforms and the waveform "looks better' when you digitize it.
Does it need to be digitized at 192/32 in order to “sound” as analog as possible?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #43
Quote
- Microlab M 910 2.1 speakers with true frequency range: 30 Hz-20000 Hz, max SPL 80dB, room correction

I am still not sure why you would need 192/32bit if they are your main speakers, or for that matter, for any speakers.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #44
Quote
- Microlab M 910 2.1 speakers with true frequency range: 30 Hz-20000 Hz, max SPL 80dB, room correction
Fixed that for you.

I am still not sure why you would need 192/32bit if they are your main speakers, or for that matter, for any speakers.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #45
I can imagine that 32 bits floating-point is good for those who notoriously mess up their conversions ... and I can't help myself thinking that such things happen deliberately for the purpose of creating a "problem with digital".

Although there is even well-reputed software which cannot convert reliably from floating-point to integer.
High Voltage socket-nose-avatar

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #46
I can't help myself thinking that such things happen deliberately for the purpose of creating a "problem with digital".
They definitely can, though not if we confine the discussion to what it is necessary to digitize vinyl per the initial claim.  The 80dB SPL would be the next limiting factor.

Vinyl needs 14 bits, tops.  The OP is welcome to prove otherwise.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #47
Quote
[Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Genesis, Alan Parsons, The Band, Fleetwood Mac, Manfred Mann's Earth Band and all sounds are way beyond the full scale (0 dB). Is this a CD standard?

It should not matter, but could you give us the year of these CD's were released, or code on the CD.
So someone here with the some CD's can double check to see if you are not doing something wrong.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #48
If I take a look closer to my new Cds (EAC accurately ripped and so on), I can't understand why the "factory default" CD sound is likely flat, louder and way beyond the full scale (0 dB). All right, sounds good for a boombox but for my PC Hi-Fi system it's a little bit more harshly. I have to de-amplify to -12dB and then to make some compression and normalization to -3dB to get an acceptable sound from CD. I tested CDs from various artists, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Genesis, Alan Parsons, The Band, Fleetwood Mac, Manfred Mann's Earth Band and all sounds are way beyond the full scale (0 dB). Is this a CD standard? Not happend when I record the same LPs from new vinyls to DSD 5.6 MHz and then converted to wav 196/32, 96/32, 48/32 or 44/16.

You're definitately doing something wrong there.  I have CDs of these bands and they sound great, though it probably depends on which issue or remaster.  For example, I have the 1983 Dark Side of the Moon (non TO) black triangle CD which has the same tape source and Sony mastering as the excellent 1977 Japan Pro Use LP, which I also have. Comparing the two side by side they sound almost identical, with the edge to the CD being slightly more dynamic and consistent across the album, ie no IGD as the LP plays towards the centre.  This CD, along with many other early Japan CDs has pre-emphasis, so if you do not de-emphasise the CD rip it will sound a little bit shrill.

Re: 192/32 needed for digitized vinyl to sound as analogue as possible

Reply #49
Quote
However I have noticed on cheaper T/T cart combinations there does seem to be a somewhat artificial widening of the sound stage.  It's hard to describe, almost like the fake surround sound some soundbars put out which of course, DSPs can emulate if that is one's thing.

I have never given this much thought but I presume it is due to phase shifts, which vinyl playback always has but more so with less well engineered or correctly aligned set-ups.  Any thoughts on this?
If the cartridge is wired wrong the left & right channels can be out-of-phase (one channel inverted).   You'll get the same "weird widening" effect if you reverse the wires to one speaker (or if you invert one channel in an audio editor).    You'll also notice a loss of bass as the bass soundwaves cancel, and if you mix-down to mono (electrically or digitally) you'll get a "vocal removal"  effect where the "center channel" information (the information common to left & right) gets canceled..

Thanks for the info but I and many others have noticed this under normal conditions where the wiring and polarity are correct.  However, it does become less noticeable with higher quality cartridges/arms and proper alignment.

Could it just be an artefact of the one stylus trying to track two channels causing phase timing errors?  If so, it would stand to reason that a better engineered cartridge/arm and alignment would bring the sound stage closer to the more precise digital reproduction.

 
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