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Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #50
Encoding at 20.0x max using Foobar 1.4 beta! If Im not mistaken it used to be around 100.0x. Much slower compared to FhG AAC @ 70.0x max.
Audio Files Format: Voice only - Opus & AAC HE v2 @32kbps | Music: - AAC HE v2 @64kbps
Encoders: Foobar2000 Converter
Players: Foobar2k and AIMP

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #51
I'm gonna fall into the category of most people here and say that I'm hitting pure transparency at (+-8kbps) 88kbps for Opus.
Impressive, especially considering where we were a decade/decade and a half ago.
Makes me wonder how things would have been if we had such polished encoders and codecs back then.
Like, how it would have been if MiniDiscs, and other portable music players had the ability to encode/decode audio of today's standars.
For example, how our world would have been if Opus would replace LP2 and LP4 modes of ATRAC3? At 132kbps and 66kbps we would have a completely different picture of their use.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #52
@Klimis

Quote
I'm gonna fall into the category of most people here and say that I'm hitting pure transparency at (+-8kbps) 88kbps for Opus.
Impressive, especially considering where we were a decade/decade and a half ago. Makes me wonder how things would have been if we had such polished encoders and codecs back then.

Yeah, that's the funny thing... like back in those days when storage space cost a arm and a leg (and even sound quality was somewhat so-so even at somewhat higher bit rates), which basically means we had limited storage space, we really needed these modern finely tuned encoders that have quality sound at low bit rates. but now the encoders are great and even pretty good at low bit rates storage space is much cheaper. so, while it's still nice to have these finely tuned encoders, they are not as important now to the common person. but then again, for the sake of efficiency it's always nice to lower the bit rate as much as possible, while retaining transparency (or close to that level), just to see the limits of sound encoder technology and Opus continues that trend.

but about the bit rate... while I never thoroughly tested Opus I would imagine I am close to that (i.e. 80kbps-96kbps) either way given my general quick testing that once I hit 64kbps it's no longer easy for me to ABX with confidence and then I really have to start paying attention etc based on Klipsch Pro-Media PC speakers (which are the best speakers I have). but speaking of the paying attention and focus etc... I assume it's normal(?) to be able to ABX early on at a certain bit rate that's not easy but you can pretty much do it, but as you keep on testing random songs etc it almost seems like fatigue sets in and then you start losing confidence in your ability to hear the difference.

but one of these days (who knows, maybe within the next week or two) I might try ABXing Opus on a Windows 10 laptop with Foobar2000 with my Sony MDR-NC7 headphones just to see if I can do any better than my main PC with the Klipsch Pro-Media speakers because all of my past ABX tests were on the Klipsch Pro-Media speakers.
For music (especially on-the-go)...
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps (or... 64kbps minimum, 128kbps maximum). *preferred choice*
-I suggest AAC(Apple) @ 96kbps (q45 TVBR) or 128kbps (q64 TVBR). *secondary choice*
-I use Foobar2000 (/w Encoders Pack etc) to convert FLAC to Opus/AAC(Apple).


Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #54
This might be a bit of a noobie question... but how do you determine the number you rate the samples at? ; because I know 1 is horrible and 5 is transparent, but I am wondering how you (and others who posts these tests with the 1 through 5 scores) quantify this with a number.
It's simple for me. I rate it as  a reviewed product.  Something like 5 stars (transparent), 4(perceptible but  not annoying), 3 (slightly annoying, 3.5 (something in the middle of 3 and 4) ...  and so on. Well, you get the point.

because even if I downloaded the samples you posted on the first page of this topic and listened, and even assuming I could detect some differences, how does one determine the score? ; or would it be better off if I simply said, "I think Song A sounds better on Opus v1.3beta than v1.2.1" ? ; or lets say I can't notice any difference(or at least nothing I feel confident in claiming), I assume that I would be useless for confirming or denying your claim (hence, useless for helping the developer in the topic)?
ABC/HR handles it pretty well.  You can read about it here http://listening-test.coresv.net/

Well, there isn't much to explain (or too much actually maybe). It's about trying the things.

Encoding at 20.0x max using Foobar 1.4 beta! If Im not mistaken it used to be around 100.0x. Much slower compared to FhG AAC @ 70.0x max.
I got  a slight slow down from ~300x to ~250x on my 3632QM (i7, Ivy Bridge). Not an issue for me.
What CPU do You have?


Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #56
I assume you mean the same issues as 1.3.
Yes.

Now there are some audible interesting differences as for  opus-tools-95c4871.zip (I call it "31_12_2017")


Big picture is  1.2.1>95c4871>>1.3b1 on two speech samples (Korean and Sample #4)

1.Korean speech: 1.2.1 is  the best of all.  Good news, a nasty mosquito ringing is gone on 95c4871 but appears some amplitude variations.
2.Sample#4: 1.2.1 and 95c4871 are practically on par. Good.

 
 

Code: [Select]
ABC/HR Version 1.1 beta 2, 18 June 2004
Testname:

1L = E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\04 Speech and Mix\04 Speech (He chased) Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps.wav
2R = E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\04 Speech and Mix\04 Speech (He chased) Opus 1.2.1 32 kbps.wav
3R = E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\04 Speech and Mix\04 Speech (He chased) Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps 31_12_2017.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1L File: E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\04 Speech and Mix\04 Speech (He chased) Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps.wav
1L Rating: 2.8
1L Comment:
---------------------------------------
2R File: E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\04 Speech and Mix\04 Speech (He chased) Opus 1.2.1 32 kbps.wav
2R Rating: 4.4
2R Comment:
---------------------------------------
3R File: E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\04 Speech and Mix\04 Speech (He chased) Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps 31_12_2017.wav
3R Rating: 4.3
3R Comment:
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:

Code: [Select]
ABC/HR Version 1.1 beta 2, 18 June 2004
Testname:

1L = E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\07 Korean speech\Greensleeves-Korean-male-speech Opus 1.2.1 32 kbps.wav
2R = E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\07 Korean speech\Greensleeves-Korean-male-speech Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps 31_12_2017.wav
3L = E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\07 Korean speech\Greensleeves-Korean-male-speech Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
1L File: E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\07 Korean speech\Greensleeves-Korean-male-speech Opus 1.2.1 32 kbps.wav
1L Rating: 4.5
1L Comment:
---------------------------------------
2R File: E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\07 Korean speech\Greensleeves-Korean-male-speech Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps 31_12_2017.wav
2R Rating: 3.5
2R Comment: Variable amplitude.
---------------------------------------
3L File: E:\DETODO\Audio\Opus 1.3b1\07 Korean speech\Greensleeves-Korean-male-speech Opus 1.3b1 32 kbps.wav
3L Rating: 3.0
3L Comment:
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:




Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #57
@IgorC

Quote
It's simple for me. I rate it as  a reviewed product.  Something like 5 stars (transparent), 4(perceptible but  not annoying), 3 (slightly annoying, 3.5 (something in the middle of 3 and 4) ...  and so on. Well, you get the point.

Hell, I thought you had some complicated math formula or something. lol

with that said, just to clear it up you just use .5 ratings? ; like 1 to 1.5 to 2 to 2.5 to 3 to 3.5 to 4 to 4.5 to 5 and then simply try your best to select things based on that general scale.

p.s. Happy New Year ;) ; It's about 4 hours into the new year here.

Quote
ABC/HR handles it pretty well.  You can read about it here http://listening-test.coresv.net/
Well, there isn't much to explain (or too much actually maybe). It's about trying the things.

Thanks for the info.

but I noticed on that site it says, "Headphones are a must-have". so when I do a test ill probably just use the older laptop I got recently for $20 (i.e. HP DV5-1002NR) instead of my main PC since it's easier to connect my headphones (Sony MDR-MC7) to it.
For music (especially on-the-go)...
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps (or... 64kbps minimum, 128kbps maximum). *preferred choice*
-I suggest AAC(Apple) @ 96kbps (q45 TVBR) or 128kbps (q64 TVBR). *secondary choice*
-I use Foobar2000 (/w Encoders Pack etc) to convert FLAC to Opus/AAC(Apple).

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #58
what i found out about comparing bitrates with opus (48kbps vs 64kbps) is that violins and other classical instruments suffer at 48 kbps (they sound perfectly fine at 64kbps, however), while most other genre's of music sound somewhat similar at both bitrates.

But for now on all of music is going to be encoded in bitrates 64 kbps and up.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #59
@king2101

I have to correct some comments I made in here as I found the text file I made with the 64kbps vs MP3 v7(100kbps) being roughly equivalent. but the thing is that 64kbps setting was NOT Opus, it was Apple AAC(AAC-LC). sorry about that!

here is a straight quote from the text file I made late last year...

Quote
Some quick ABX testing (never finished actual test but i just based the following on my confidence level in hearing a obvious difference without spending a bunch of time on it) on Steppenwolf 'Desperation' song (i.e. FLAC vs MP3/AAC songs in ABX test)...

Apple AAC seems to hit a sweet spot for me when i want bare minimum bit rates on 64kbps as the next lowest setting of 56kbps i can obviously detect sound quality drop off with ABX testing in Foobar2000.

LAME MP3 equivalent to the above on that same song would be LAME v7(100kbps average)(not easy to detect) vs v8(85kbps average)(easy to detect).

bottom line... based on the info above LAME v7(100kbps average) is roughly equivalent to Apple AAC @ q27(64kbps average).

p.s. test was ran on my PC's Klipsch Pro-Media speakers in about Sep 2017.

but with that out of the way...

after some brief testing with Opus v1.2.1 with that same song (i.e. Steppenwolf - Desperation) I don't even feel confident in saying I noticed anything obvious between 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate) and 64kbps(68kbps actual song bit rate). but when dropped to 32kbps(34kbps actual song bit rate) I can definitely notice that.

I was even trying the Laptop with headphones (Sony MDR-NC7) and, at least based on that song with some fairly quick testing, I don't even think I can hear a difference with Opus v1.2.1 between 48kbps and 64kbps.

so basically... Opus is apparently superior to Apple AAC (AAC-LC) based on my quick testing here on that single song at these lower bit rates and it appears I am pretty much similar to King2101 in that I can't notice any obvious differences ('maybe' barely any differences(?)) between Opus @ 48kbps to 64kbps, at least on that single song I tested. but I feel confident I can notice it when doing some real quick ABX tests @ 32kbps (actual song bit rate is 34kbps). so assuming that much is true, at least based on the particular song I tested, my basic transparent point on it must be a bit rate setting somewhere between 32kbps to 48kbps. this clearly tops Apple AAC(AAC-LC) for me where that same song takes the 64kbps setting before I no longer feel confident in being able to ABX it.

I even re-ripped the song a moment ago to 56kbps (Apple AAC-LC) and still feel confident I can easily detect a difference as it's more muffled sounding which is why it's easy for me to detect as that is no longer there when using the 64kbps setting. the bit rate of that 56kbps setting(easy for me to detect) song is 73kbps in Apple AAC. when ripped to 64kbps setting (no longer easy for me to detect) the actual song bit rate is 83kbps. this was all done on my Klipsch Pro-Media PC speakers.

so based on that info above, on the song Desperation by Steppenwolf, Opus is pretty much transparent for me at setting no higher than about 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate), maybe even lower, where as with the Apple AAC(AAC-LC) it takes 64kbps (83kbps actual song bit rate) to get to basically the same point.

does anyone feel similar to myself with Opus v1.2.1 vs Apple AAC (AAC-LC)?
For music (especially on-the-go)...
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps (or... 64kbps minimum, 128kbps maximum). *preferred choice*
-I suggest AAC(Apple) @ 96kbps (q45 TVBR) or 128kbps (q64 TVBR). *secondary choice*
-I use Foobar2000 (/w Encoders Pack etc) to convert FLAC to Opus/AAC(Apple).

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #60
@king2101

I have to correct some comments I made in here as I found the text file I made with the 64kbps vs MP3 v7(100kbps) being roughly equivalent. but the thing is that 64kbps setting was NOT Opus, it was Apple AAC(AAC-LC). sorry about that!

here is a straight quote from the text file I made late last year...

Quote
Some quick ABX testing (never finished actual test but i just based the following on my confidence level in hearing a obvious difference without spending a bunch of time on it) on Steppenwolf 'Desperation' song (i.e. FLAC vs MP3/AAC songs in ABX test)...

Apple AAC seems to hit a sweet spot for me when i want bare minimum bit rates on 64kbps as the next lowest setting of 56kbps i can obviously detect sound quality drop off with ABX testing in Foobar2000.

LAME MP3 equivalent to the above on that same song would be LAME v7(100kbps average)(not easy to detect) vs v8(85kbps average)(easy to detect).

bottom line... based on the info above LAME v7(100kbps average) is roughly equivalent to Apple AAC @ q27(64kbps average).

p.s. test was ran on my PC's Klipsch Pro-Media speakers in about Sep 2017.

but with that out of the way...

after some brief testing with Opus v1.2.1 with that same song (i.e. Steppenwolf - Desperation) I don't even feel confident in saying I noticed anything obvious between 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate) and 64kbps(68kbps actual song bit rate). but when dropped to 32kbps(34kbps actual song bit rate) I can definitely notice that.

I was even trying the Laptop with headphones (Sony MDR-NC7) and, at least based on that song with some fairly quick testing, I don't even think I can hear a difference with Opus v1.2.1 between 48kbps and 64kbps.

so basically... Opus is apparently superior to Apple AAC (AAC-LC) based on my quick testing here on that single song at these lower bit rates and it appears I am pretty much similar to King2101 in that I can't notice any obvious differences ('maybe' barely any differences(?)) between Opus @ 48kbps to 64kbps, at least on that single song I tested. but I feel confident I can notice it when doing some real quick ABX tests @ 32kbps (actual song bit rate is 34kbps). so assuming that much is true, at least based on the particular song I tested, my basic transparent point on it must be a bit rate setting somewhere between 32kbps to 48kbps. this clearly tops Apple AAC(AAC-LC) for me where that same song takes the 64kbps setting before I no longer feel confident in being able to ABX it.

I even re-ripped the song a moment ago to 56kbps (Apple AAC-LC) and still feel confident I can easily detect a difference as it's more muffled sounding which is why it's easy for me to detect as that is no longer there when using the 64kbps setting. the bit rate of that 56kbps setting(easy for me to detect) song is 73kbps in Apple AAC. when ripped to 64kbps setting (no longer easy for me to detect) the actual song bit rate is 83kbps. this was all done on my Klipsch Pro-Media PC speakers.

so based on that info above, on the song Desperation by Steppenwolf, Opus is pretty much transparent for me at setting no higher than about 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate), maybe even lower, where as with the Apple AAC(AAC-LC) it takes 64kbps (83kbps actual song bit rate) to get to basically the same point.

does anyone feel similar to myself with Opus v1.2.1 vs Apple AAC (AAC-LC)?

I had no idea that AAC-LC had transparency at around 64-80kbps vbr! I thought it was only transparent at 96 kbps or higher!

You should do a test on a cell phone with a 48Kbps opus file and a 64kbps opus file playing through the internal speaker. like i mentioned before, the 48kbps file exhibits strange artifacts while being played back through the internal speaker, and is  not heard on headphones or other speakers, while, the 64kbps has no such artifacts



Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #61
@king2101

I have to correct some comments I made in here as I found the text file I made with the 64kbps vs MP3 v7(100kbps) being roughly equivalent. but the thing is that 64kbps setting was NOT Opus, it was Apple AAC(AAC-LC). sorry about that!

here is a straight quote from the text file I made late last year...

Quote
Some quick ABX testing (never finished actual test but i just based the following on my confidence level in hearing a obvious difference without spending a bunch of time on it) on Steppenwolf 'Desperation' song (i.e. FLAC vs MP3/AAC songs in ABX test)...

Apple AAC seems to hit a sweet spot for me when i want bare minimum bit rates on 64kbps as the next lowest setting of 56kbps i can obviously detect sound quality drop off with ABX testing in Foobar2000.

LAME MP3 equivalent to the above on that same song would be LAME v7(100kbps average)(not easy to detect) vs v8(85kbps average)(easy to detect).

bottom line... based on the info above LAME v7(100kbps average) is roughly equivalent to Apple AAC @ q27(64kbps average).

p.s. test was ran on my PC's Klipsch Pro-Media speakers in about Sep 2017.

but with that out of the way...

after some brief testing with Opus v1.2.1 with that same song (i.e. Steppenwolf - Desperation) I don't even feel confident in saying I noticed anything obvious between 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate) and 64kbps(68kbps actual song bit rate). but when dropped to 32kbps(34kbps actual song bit rate) I can definitely notice that.

I was even trying the Laptop with headphones (Sony MDR-NC7) and, at least based on that song with some fairly quick testing, I don't even think I can hear a difference with Opus v1.2.1 between 48kbps and 64kbps.

so basically... Opus is apparently superior to Apple AAC (AAC-LC) based on my quick testing here on that single song at these lower bit rates and it appears I am pretty much similar to King2101 in that I can't notice any obvious differences ('maybe' barely any differences(?)) between Opus @ 48kbps to 64kbps, at least on that single song I tested. but I feel confident I can notice it when doing some real quick ABX tests @ 32kbps (actual song bit rate is 34kbps). so assuming that much is true, at least based on the particular song I tested, my basic transparent point on it must be a bit rate setting somewhere between 32kbps to 48kbps. this clearly tops Apple AAC(AAC-LC) for me where that same song takes the 64kbps setting before I no longer feel confident in being able to ABX it.

I even re-ripped the song a moment ago to 56kbps (Apple AAC-LC) and still feel confident I can easily detect a difference as it's more muffled sounding which is why it's easy for me to detect as that is no longer there when using the 64kbps setting. the bit rate of that 56kbps setting(easy for me to detect) song is 73kbps in Apple AAC. when ripped to 64kbps setting (no longer easy for me to detect) the actual song bit rate is 83kbps. this was all done on my Klipsch Pro-Media PC speakers.

so based on that info above, on the song Desperation by Steppenwolf, Opus is pretty much transparent for me at setting no higher than about 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate), maybe even lower, where as with the Apple AAC(AAC-LC) it takes 64kbps (83kbps actual song bit rate) to get to basically the same point.

does anyone feel similar to myself with Opus v1.2.1 vs Apple AAC (AAC-LC)?

I had no idea that AAC-LC had transparency at around 64-80kbps vbr! I thought it was only transparent at 96 kbps or higher!

You should do a test on a cell phone with a 48Kbps opus file and a 64kbps opus file playing through the internal speaker. like i mentioned before, the 48kbps file exhibits strange artifacts while being played back through the internal speaker, and is  not heard on headphones or other speakers, while, the 64kbps has no such artifacts




My Spidey sense tells me that there's something wrong with Android's implementation of Opus, because it does sounds drastically different through the speaker.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #62
@king2101

I have to correct some comments I made in here as I found the text file I made with the 64kbps vs MP3 v7(100kbps) being roughly equivalent. but the thing is that 64kbps setting was NOT Opus, it was Apple AAC(AAC-LC). sorry about that!

here is a straight quote from the text file I made late last year...

Quote
Some quick ABX testing (never finished actual test but i just based the following on my confidence level in hearing a obvious difference without spending a bunch of time on it) on Steppenwolf 'Desperation' song (i.e. FLAC vs MP3/AAC songs in ABX test)...

Apple AAC seems to hit a sweet spot for me when i want bare minimum bit rates on 64kbps as the next lowest setting of 56kbps i can obviously detect sound quality drop off with ABX testing in Foobar2000.

LAME MP3 equivalent to the above on that same song would be LAME v7(100kbps average)(not easy to detect) vs v8(85kbps average)(easy to detect).

bottom line... based on the info above LAME v7(100kbps average) is roughly equivalent to Apple AAC @ q27(64kbps average).

p.s. test was ran on my PC's Klipsch Pro-Media speakers in about Sep 2017.

but with that out of the way...

after some brief testing with Opus v1.2.1 with that same song (i.e. Steppenwolf - Desperation) I don't even feel confident in saying I noticed anything obvious between 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate) and 64kbps(68kbps actual song bit rate). but when dropped to 32kbps(34kbps actual song bit rate) I can definitely notice that.

I was even trying the Laptop with headphones (Sony MDR-NC7) and, at least based on that song with some fairly quick testing, I don't even think I can hear a difference with Opus v1.2.1 between 48kbps and 64kbps.

so basically... Opus is apparently superior to Apple AAC (AAC-LC) based on my quick testing here on that single song at these lower bit rates and it appears I am pretty much similar to King2101 in that I can't notice any obvious differences ('maybe' barely any differences(?)) between Opus @ 48kbps to 64kbps, at least on that single song I tested. but I feel confident I can notice it when doing some real quick ABX tests @ 32kbps (actual song bit rate is 34kbps). so assuming that much is true, at least based on the particular song I tested, my basic transparent point on it must be a bit rate setting somewhere between 32kbps to 48kbps. this clearly tops Apple AAC(AAC-LC) for me where that same song takes the 64kbps setting before I no longer feel confident in being able to ABX it.

I even re-ripped the song a moment ago to 56kbps (Apple AAC-LC) and still feel confident I can easily detect a difference as it's more muffled sounding which is why it's easy for me to detect as that is no longer there when using the 64kbps setting. the bit rate of that 56kbps setting(easy for me to detect) song is 73kbps in Apple AAC. when ripped to 64kbps setting (no longer easy for me to detect) the actual song bit rate is 83kbps. this was all done on my Klipsch Pro-Media PC speakers.

so based on that info above, on the song Desperation by Steppenwolf, Opus is pretty much transparent for me at setting no higher than about 48kbps(51kbps actual song bit rate), maybe even lower, where as with the Apple AAC(AAC-LC) it takes 64kbps (83kbps actual song bit rate) to get to basically the same point.

does anyone feel similar to myself with Opus v1.2.1 vs Apple AAC (AAC-LC)?

how does Opus at 48-64kbps sound on different speakers/headphones other than your PC speakers and  Sony MDR-NC7?

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #63
There's no need to quote an entire post just to write a single line

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #64
so... after all it's recommended to stick to v1.2.1 final. is that right?

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #65
@king2101

Quote
I had no idea that AAC-LC had transparency at around 64-80kbps vbr! I thought it was only transparent at 96 kbps or higher!

Well in general it seems Apple AAC @ 96kbps is the lowest people would suggest if you don't want to gamble and someone could easily disagree with me on that Apple AAC @ 64kbps claim, and I would expect them to, because I was simply doing quick ABX tests til I reached the point it was no longer easy for me to spot artifacts and keep in mind that was only one song I tested but I feel that should be a good ball park guideline for me when it comes to THE minimum bit rates I would consider using for Apple AAC.

p.s. but like my signature says, Apple AAC @ 128kbps seems to be the 'sweet spot' as, while I personally could go lower than that and probably not notice it, I just like to play it safe and given user tests around here at the 128kbps setting on Apple AAC your going to have solid sound quality with a wider range of people. sorta that balance of minimal file size but still strong sound quality. but your minimum suggestion of 96kbps (i.e. q45 TVBR) is still what I would use as a general fairly safe minimal guideline for most people.

so sorta like this with Apple AAC (AAC-LC)...

-256kbps = if your paranoid about sound quality and still want to use lossy audio and don't care about storage space or efficiency.
-128kbps = this is my general use suggestion if one has some concern with efficiency, but is not paranoid about sound quality. it's what I refer to as the 'sweet spot' of AAC.
-96kbps = my minimum suggested setting if one don't want to gamble with sound quality too much but storage space is of higher concern than sound quality.
-64kbps = THE minimum I would even consider using as anything lower than this sacrifices sound quality too much. this would be only for those who's primary concern is maximum songs on a device and but still don't want any fairly major hits to the sound quality.

Quote
You should do a test on a cell phone with a 48Kbps opus file and a 64kbps opus file playing through the internal speaker.

Ill just take your word for it as I don't have access to one I can test as, to be honest, I don't even own a cell phone. I know that's rare but I don't really use phones much in general.

Quote
how does Opus at 48-64kbps sound on different speakers/headphones other than your PC speakers and  Sony MDR-NC7?

Well the thing is I don't have much to test it on in general. basically just my main PC (with the Klipsch Pro-Media speakers) and the Laptop (HP DV5-1002NR) and I can use those Sony headphones on both. but I just used the headphones on the Laptop since it's easier. but I figure trying the headphones on the main PC would be mostly pointless(?) so I did not bother as it's somewhat of a pain to use the headphones on the main PC because of lack of cord length on the headphones.

@lvqcl

Quote
There's no need to quote an entire post just to write a single line

Exactly. I just do the @ symbol with the users name immediately next to it and then do "[.quote] text here [./quote]" (remove the "." and the ").

makes things a lot less clutter that way.
For music (especially on-the-go)...
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps (or... 64kbps minimum, 128kbps maximum). *preferred choice*
-I suggest AAC(Apple) @ 96kbps (q45 TVBR) or 128kbps (q64 TVBR). *secondary choice*
-I use Foobar2000 (/w Encoders Pack etc) to convert FLAC to Opus/AAC(Apple).

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #66
ThaCrip, that suggestion list is useless if you don't say at what bitrate the codec is considered transparent IMO, in fact, that's all I want to know then I'll test myself. AAC = Ogg = Opus = transparent at around 160kbps.

Also suggesting 256 then the next one half the size it's a bit too much don't you think? What about 160? 192? Anyway, this is just my opinion, you have yours of course, you sound like a really nice guy actually and agree with AAC really good at ~96, in fact that what I use for mobile.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #67
@eahm

Quote
ThaCrip, that suggestion list is useless if you don't say at what bitrate the codec is considered transparent IMO, in fact, that's all I want to know then I'll test myself. AAC = Ogg = Opus = transparent at around 160kbps.

If your concerned with Transparency... http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Transparency ; or just to quote the important info...

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Transparency at the lowest possible bitrate also seems to be used as a measure of the quality or degree of sophistication and tuning of a lossy compression algorithm:

    MP3-encoded files are generally considered artifact-free at bitrates at/above 192kbps.
    Vorbis ogg files are supposedly artifact-free at bitrates at/above 160kbps.
    AAC- and Opus-encoded files, depending on the particular encoder implementation, are claimed to be artifact-free at lower bitrates than both Vorbis ogg and MP3.

Which is basically inline what your 160kbps or so suggestion as beyond this bit rate things definitely lose efficiency.

but speaking of efficiency as I sorta commented on before, it seems most people will likely find one of the following three settings to be their sweet spot for Apple AAC (and probably Opus to)...

-96kbps (q27 TVBR) (more concerned about file size than sound quality)
-128kbps (q64 TVBR)  (my suggested default setting for most people)
-160kbps (q82 TVBR) (more concerned with sound quality than file size)

NOTE: I just stick to TVBR over CVBR simply because, given what I have read around here, there is no clear difference between the two from a sound quality point of view and TVBR generally uses less bit rate which makes it a bit more efficient than CVBR. hence, the better choice in my opinion.

NOTE #2: even on the poll I started (i.e. https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114862.0.html ) nearly 8 out of 10 voters (or 77% (from 39 votes)) basically agree with the three basic bit rates above when it comes to the 'sweet spot' of Apple AAC.

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Also suggesting 256 then the next one half the size it's a bit too much don't you think? What about 160? 192? Anyway, this is just my opinion, you have yours of course, you sound like a really nice guy actually and agree with AAC really good at ~96, in fact that what I use for mobile.

Yeah, I agree 256kbps is overkill but some people are paranoid and as I assume you already know Apple uses that setting. so that's why I just suggested this for those who are paranoid about sound and don't really care about encoder efficiency and the like.

so to correct(add to) my previous post above, it would now look something like this with Apple AAC (and Opus probably ain't much different(maybe say Opus @ 80kbps instead of AAC's 96kbps etc, but you get the gist :) ))...

-256kbps = if your paranoid about sound quality and still want to use lossy audio and don't care about storage space or efficiency.
-192kbps = almost no one would need to use a bit rate higher than this it seems.
-160kbps = seems to be the high side of what would be considered efficient use of bit rate and it's a very safe setting from a sound quality point of view as it will please a high percentage of people.
-128kbps = this is my general use/default suggestion if one has some concern with efficiency, but is not somewhat paranoid about sound quality. it's what I refer to as the 'sweet spot' of AAC as it keeps file size minimal without sacrificing sound much.
-96kbps = my minimum suggested setting if one don't want to gamble with sound quality too much but storage space is of higher concern than sound quality.
-64kbps = THE minimum I would even consider using as anything lower than this sacrifices sound quality too much. this would be only for those who's primary concern is maximum songs on a device and but still don't want any fairly major hits to the sound quality.

that should make things a bit better for you (and others) now I suspect ;)
For music (especially on-the-go)...
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps (or... 64kbps minimum, 128kbps maximum). *preferred choice*
-I suggest AAC(Apple) @ 96kbps (q45 TVBR) or 128kbps (q64 TVBR). *secondary choice*
-I use Foobar2000 (/w Encoders Pack etc) to convert FLAC to Opus/AAC(Apple).

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #68
You didn't get my point at all.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #69
I would not consider anything below 96kbps on AAC-LC near to transparent, the lowpass and the artifacting starts to hit alot. Maybe you mean AAC-HE, at higher bitrates (always below 96kbps) it's much more acceptable, maybe even transparent than encoding at the same bitrate on AAC-LC.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #70
@eahm

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You didn't get my point at all.

I just simply responded to what was said and corrected my post based on what you said and then put in those six settings as sorta a general guideline for someone who don't want to think about this stuff too much. I try to keep things fairly simple.

@Klimis

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I would not consider anything below 96kbps on AAC-LC near to transparent, the lowpass and the artifacting starts to hit alot.

I would not say 64kbps is much worse than 96kbps though but anything less I would start to consider bad as it's got more of a obvious muffled sound to the overall sound which is cleared up once I hit 64kbps from 56kbps.

but who knows, maybe with certain equipment even the 64kbps AAC-LC setting is obvious like how I can obviously notice the 56kbps setting(?). If you don't mind me asking, at what bit rate is it no longer easy for you to ABX a random song pretty quickly on some decent PC speakers etc?

but like I was saying, I would not suggest using below 96kbps for most people even though I feel you can use as low as 64kbps if your really hard up for storage space.

p.s. I am referring to AAC-LC.

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Maybe you mean AAC-HE, at higher bitrates (always below 96kbps) it's much more acceptable, maybe even transparent than encoding at the same bitrate on AAC-LC.

When I talk Apple AAC I always mean AAC-LC until specified otherwise as AAC-HE, while clearly helps at lower bit rates, is too much of a performance hit especially on older hardware like Sansa e200 series etc as it goes from playing AAC-LC without issue to basically freezing the device (too much CPU) with AAC-HE.

plus, even those older devices aside... ain't once you go away from AAC-LC (like to AAC-HE and the like) then hardware support starts to get a bit more flaky?
For music (especially on-the-go)...
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps (or... 64kbps minimum, 128kbps maximum). *preferred choice*
-I suggest AAC(Apple) @ 96kbps (q45 TVBR) or 128kbps (q64 TVBR). *secondary choice*
-I use Foobar2000 (/w Encoders Pack etc) to convert FLAC to Opus/AAC(Apple).

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #71
I would not consider anything below 96kbps AAC-LC transparent. There's just too much frequency balding happening, it's a joke to even speak about it. It needs proper SBR after that thresshold. Well it's not like Opus doesn't do something similar at these bitrates, there's always so much you can do with MDCT based codecs, maybe if we move away from MDCT (ghost audio maybe?) you might be able to get greater band replication without the need of SBR but until then there's AAC-HE and Opus.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #72
@Klimis

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I would not consider anything below 96kbps AAC-LC transparent.

I would pretty much agree with you here as it seems like that 96kbps is the minimum that most people would want to use without rolling-the-dice a bit given general tests etc I have read around here when looking at a wider range of people and wider range of music etc. so I am basically forced to agree with you on this much given that general info.

but with that said, ill say this for AAC-LC... in terms of overall sound I think 64kbps is much closer to 96kbps level of sound quality than it is 32kbps as I see 64kbps as what I would call the bottom-of-the-barrel of usable settings for music as any lower and your in the higher-tier of the garbage range and then rapidly declines from there.

I might even go as far as to claim, at least based on the single song I tested (with my Klipsch Pro-Media PC speakers), that there is more of a drop off in the overall sound quality with AAC-LC(Apple AAC) from 64kbps down to 56kbps than there is from 96kbps to 64kbps.

but who knows, maybe that's not a completely fair comparison because with the lower bit rates these bigger drop offs in overall sound quality are probably expected with little decreases in bit rate (i.e. 8kbps difference in setting) where as after you hit a certain point with bit rate the sound quality no longer has more obvious increases or drop offs when going 32kbps or so at a time with say 96kbps to 128kbps etc. but I guess I am not really saying anything new here either as it seems like with AAC-LC you start off at a low bit rate, say something less than 64kbps, and as you increase it gives rather large increases to sound quality as you bump up the bit rate a little bit but once you hit the 96kbps setting (maybe 128kbps-ish tops) the increases in overall sound quality start to decline a lot, and for those who can still hear artifacts etc, need to boost the bit rate a good amount to clean up some fairly minor stuff and seems to roughly top out around 160kbps setting before efficiency goes out the window going beyond 160kbps.

so in short... I basically agree with your general comment there but I just thought I would give my opinion on AAC-LC at the lower bit rates below 96kbps.

Ill stop babbling now ;)
For music (especially on-the-go)...
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps (or... 64kbps minimum, 128kbps maximum). *preferred choice*
-I suggest AAC(Apple) @ 96kbps (q45 TVBR) or 128kbps (q64 TVBR). *secondary choice*
-I use Foobar2000 (/w Encoders Pack etc) to convert FLAC to Opus/AAC(Apple).

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #73
always funny if people want to encode music and don't want to sacrifice sound much  :D
The progress with the encoders is awesome and I really like the discussions. But I think, as storage space is cheap and small in handling size nowadays, it's mostly about streaming and temporarily use for music-OTG, so in masking environments.
I claim (!) that most of the longtime HA followers wouldn't encode with less than 160kbps-192kps if it's about 1-time-encoding for their lossy-archive..

I really hope that OPUS might bring a change and evolve into a new de-facto-standard as it is able to handle a wide spectrum of usecases while ensuring quality.

Re: Opus 1.3-beta is here

Reply #74
Good Day Sirs, I've just learned all about Opus and I'm planning to do a massive migration previously from AAC to Opus of about 2000 tracks from my library. Seeing that Opus 1.3 is coming, should I be waiting for 1.3 or the recent stable version a way to go?

Thanks in advance.

 
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