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Topic: [TROLLBAIT] Dare I start another vinyl topic? (Read 7933 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #25
In case you missed it, I own a TT. I find plenty fastidiously cleaned vinyl quite enjoyable.
In selectively quoting your earlier post, you have removed your follow-up comment that it is intolerable. Let me refresh your memory:
In case you missed it, I own a TT. I find plenty fastidiously cleaned vinyl quite enjoyable. But as a classical music fan, with my decidedly non-audiophile, slightly capable system, near intolerable.
So you find fastidiously cleaed vinyl quite enjoyable, but you also find it near intolerable. It's often difficult to figure out exactly what you mean to say.

While I play a psychologist on TV, I'm not really one in real life, so I can't help with that level of disconnect between what I actually wrote vs what's going on in your head. Sorry Clive, no hypotheses to put forward there, perhaps you could help?
I have a hypothesis that might help. It's because you tend to write in riddles. You routinely lob in mischievous remarks that I for one have difficulty deciphering. I *think* you do it to try and be funny. But I could easily have got that wrong, too.

So I *still* don't know whether you think vinyl has audible problems over and above surface noise and clicks. I kinda got the impression that you do, but I guess I could easily have misinterpreted your posts.

A staight answer to a straight question would be helpful at this stage. Any chance of one?

Oh and that's a pretty uncalled for low blow lumping me in with Arny. Not nice.
I didn't realise you had a problem with Arny. I put the two of you together because I got the impression that you both have a dislike of vinyl and might be the sort of people who would claim to be able to identify it easily. No other reason.


Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #27
I'm not suggesting that an LP and CD of the same recording would be indistinguishable - of course they would sound different (and especially so for classical).

I certainly acknowledge that lstening to vinyl direct from the TT is always accompanied by annoying noise.

In selectively quoting your earlier post, you have removed your follow-up comment that it is intolerable. Let me refresh your memory:
In case you missed it, I own a TT. I find plenty fastidiously cleaned vinyl quite enjoyable. But as a classical music fan, with my decidedly non-audiophile, slightly capable system, near intolerable.
So you find fastidiously cleaned vinyl quite enjoyable, but you also find it near intolerable. It's often difficult to figure out exactly what you mean to say.
I'm saying I agree with Cliveb regarding classical vinyl/playback noise. If you can decipher what he's saying about classical vinyl that I agree with, you should be good to go.


I didn't realise you had a problem with Arny. I put the two of you together because
Please don't.

Now I have a question for you. Do you listen to "live" vinyl with some sort of active analog declicker/noise remover, or just (digital) noise removed recorded vinyl rips? Genuinely puzzled as to what sort of "vinyl" playback you speak of.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #28
I want to hear from those who hate vinyl exactly what it is that they find so objectionable.
Once I experienced the convenience of using a clicker to pick anything from my library for instant playback, there was no going back.  The fact that digital sounds to me as good or better than what I got from my turntable was just icing.

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #29
Right now, there's an entire music resurgence going on, with people listening to Lo-Fi, Vapor Wave, Synthwave, etc. Some artists intentionally release their music on MCs because the slightly muffled sound is actually part of the whole point, etc.

The latest hipster fad. Like a plate of 'food' being half empty and the rest dotted with tweezer placed micro-dots of one gel or another and the odd flower. Fluff and nonsense.

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #30
OK, here you go. The ZIP file contains 8 FLACs and a readme file.
I started listening, got halfway through, stopped and started playing video games.
Anyone else notice this?




p.s. Clive ^joke, not serious^
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #31
Who on this forum "hates" vinyl?  So far as I can tell they believe they simply have recognized a better medium and moved on.  Does buying an LCD TV mean you hate cathode ray tubes?

(I still watch T.V. on a C.R.T. box, by the way...)

It seems to me you started this thread by poisoning the well with a personal attack on those who *prefer* digital modes.  They disagree with your preference, therefore they must hate your preference.  Not a great way to start a productive conversation.  And you wonder why you are drawing some snark?
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #32
I don't hate vinyl, rather I don't appreciate the nonsense that people parrot about the format, either ignorantly or disingenuously.

In this case we also see poor reading comprehension and intellectual dishonesty through the use of strawman argumentation and playing the victim.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #33
I 'hate' the smugly ignorant blather that vinylphiles emit whenever they veer beyond 'I like to play records'.

As if vinyl is doing anything that digital can't, soundwise.

(I do not count cliveb among the ignorati)



Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #34
Now I have a question for you. Do you listen to "live" vinyl with some sort of active analog declicker/noise remover, or just (digital) noise removed recorded vinyl rips? Genuinely puzzled as to what sort of "vinyl" playback you speak of.
All of my music listening is streamed via various Squeezebox devices. Most of my library is CD rips.
A proportion (perhaps 5%) is needle drops that have been carefully declicked & denoised.
I never listen to "live" vinyl.

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #35
Excellent. Why you decided to wear a target for being sensible is a bit odd.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #36
It seems to me you started this thread by poisoning the well with a personal attack on those who *prefer* digital modes.  They disagree with your preference, therefore they must hate your preference.  Not a great way to start a productive conversation.  And you wonder why you are drawing some snark?
You seem to have drawn the conclusion that I prefer vinyl. I don't, and thought I made that absolutely clear in the very first post. If you want to know, I do actually prefer digital - it's far more convenient and (usually) sounds better.

I started the thread because I perceived that some forum members regarded vinyl as much more seriously flawed than I do.
All I wanted to find out was whether this perception of mine about their attitude was correct. I don't recall ever attacking anyone for preferring digital over vinyl - if I did that, please show me where.

I unwisely used the term "hate vinyl" to characterise their position, and now realise that it was too strong: I apologise for that.

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #37
You're telling us you enjoy listening to vinyl? Good for you but nobody cares on this forum. Or if some do then they're on the wrong forum.

Well, we did once have a what do people like about LPs and playing them? thread and, if I remember rightly, it turned into one of those threads about... what people like about LPs. Probably most things got covered, from the feel of the cardboard to the inner sleeve  but nobody tried to claim that only LPs contained angel dust and the farts of real musicians. 

Yes, we can discuss records. It all depends on the agenda, I suppose.

I certainly don't hate vinyl. I love vinyl, and even shellac, as having been a big part of my history.

I don't play it any more, though, and, sentimentally, I regret that sometimes.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #38
For what it's worth, all of the samples sound fine to me. I don't hear anything wrong with any of them. I compared them to Spotify's version of them (320kbps Vorbis) and they sound the same to me.

I didn't try especially hard to listen to differences and I didn't try to ABX anything. Just a normal listen a couple times.

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #39
Now I have a question for you. Do you listen to "live" vinyl with some sort of active analog declicker/noise remover, or just (digital) noise removed recorded vinyl rips? Genuinely puzzled as to what sort of "vinyl" playback you speak of.
All of my music listening is streamed via various Squeezebox devices. Most of my library is CD rips.
A proportion (perhaps 5%) is needle drops that have been carefully declicked & denoised.
I never listen to "live" vinyl.

It is with some trepidation that I offer this opinion, but here goes anyway...

I think Funkstar might have something of a point when he talks about not browsing the net or skipping tracks when listening to vinyl. My hypothesis is that the effort involved in playing an LP has a psychological effect that encourages the listener to pay more attention so that the effort they've just expended doesn't get squandered.

This is a scientific forum, but psychology is still a science of some sort, isn't it? (Not proper science like maths or physics, of course  ;) )

Ok, so your hypothesis was based on what vinylphiles llike Funkstar claimed, rather than what you yourself experience.
Got it. Puzzle solved.
Ok, hopefully you got the joke above too then.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #40
OK, here you go. The ZIP file contains 8 FLACs and a readme file.
Ok here i go. I only listened with foobar and write down my honest impression after short listening. No science.
No hunt for samples from my side happened. This means no comparison or abx.

Kevin Ayres, scratch ~6sec, vinyl
Tchaikovsky, clean and fresh, digital
Saint Saens, lowres unpleasent, vinyl
Gordon Giltrap, slow transients for such a guitar recording, vinyl
Queen, crackle ~13sec, sibilence vinyl
King Crimson, old fashioned sound but clean, digital
Eberhard Weber, precise bass vs sax but crackle ~28sec, vinyl
Franky i don't know. I guess digital as the pop recordings back then were not so good
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #41
All I wanted to find out was whether this perception of mine about their attitude was correct.
It isn't.

...but I can't speak for Arny.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #42
All I wanted to find out was whether this perception of mine about their attitude was correct.
It isn't.

...but I can't speak for Arny.
Right, he may actually be that hater Clive thought existed.
TT/vinyl owning me, not so much. Except classical (maybe some big band and occasional jazz with 20hz bass) on vinyl, yep, admitted dynamics/deep bass limited, noise, pops, etc. hater.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #43
Ok here i go. I only listened with foobar and write down my honest impression after short listening. No science.
No hunt for samples from my side happened. This means no comparison or abx.
Thanks, Wombat, for taking the trouble.
I will reveal where the samples came from in due course, to give others a chance to play (if they wish to).
But if you're interested, for now I can tell you that you got 3 out of 8 correct.

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #44
No problem with that. None of these recordings are exactly great sounding.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!


Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #46
Sigh!

I think the idea was to use your ears rather than your eyes.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #47
I think the idea was to use your ears rather than your eyes.

I am eagerly anticipating the results of this experiment, using ears etc. How many will have the courage to express their views on the origin of the, now famous, 8 files? So far, we have only one, if I’m not mistaken.

Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #48
Not very confident of my results.  I listened in front of my PC rather than streaming the files to the hi fi but here it goes...
1. Vinyl                  5. Digital
2. Digital               6. Digital
3. Digital               7. Vinyl
4.Vinyl                   8. Digital


Re: Dare I start another vinyl topic?

Reply #49
That's what I see in cliveb's first post:

To put it another way, if you heard some vinyl that had no audible ticks, pops or surface noise, how confident are you that you would be able to identify it as vinyl?

Then the test files are vinyl rips with laborious digital restoration applied. These files are just as invalid as Atmasphere's revolutionary mic rip, if the purpose of the test is to demonstrate "live" vinyl playback, as AJ mentioned. The only valid comparison is vinyl rips with only basic processing (e.g. volume normalization). Vinyl rips with digital restoration is by definition no different from ADD or AAD CDs, apart from those CDs are supposedly originated from tapes. Obviously I don't choose which CDs to buy based on SPARS codes.

What's the point of doing such a test? The only point I can conclude from this test is remastered CD originated from analog sources can sound great without all those loudness war bullshit and molesting as discussed here:

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114203.msg941916.html#msg941916

...and you can see Atmasphere's nonsense again.

 
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