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Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #51 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
There was not an arm made in the 60s that could track any cartridge correctly.

What are the details and authority for this claim?

I know that vinyl advocates  like to pretend that there have been dramatic improvements in LP technology since the 1960s but when politely asked to provide details and authority for those exceptional claims, they seem to go silent.

Quote
Unfortunately we still see a lot of modern arms that have traditional engineering defects (one example is the bearings not being in the same plane as the LP surface)

Please provide a technical report describing the adverse effects of building ton arms in different ways than the ones you seem to advocate without providing evidence or logic.

Furthermore there are literally 100's of tone arms on the market today, both new production, legacy and NOS so it seems like there are a lot of relevant choices. 

It is no secret that most audiophiles who are LP advocates  seem to be unaware and uninformed about the kinematics of tone arm design and operation.

Unlike more modern playback formats, LP tone arms and other playback gear seem to require frequent adjustments which few seem to understand how to perform correctly.  In the end we can only judge a format based on how it is used by those who prefer it, and if they habitually do so improperly, that is not the fault of those who prefer more modern technology.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #52 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on

What are the details and authority for this claim?

I know that vinyl advocates  like to pretend that there have been dramatic improvements in LP technology since the 1960s but when politely asked to provide details and authority for those exceptional claims, they seem to go silent.


That could well be because you are invoking stares of incredulity. Going through the immensity of data to try to convince a person who won't be regardless is likely seen as a Sisyphean task. Are you really trying to suggest that there have been no improvements since the 1960s?? Materials science, machining technique, computer optimization, design improvements.... Beyond this I will allow the rock to roll back to its resting place, as have others.


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Please provide a technical report describing the adverse effects of building ton arms in different ways than the ones you seem to advocate without providing evidence or logic.
Its actually simpler than that.

OK imagine carrying a couch; two people required. On level ground, both carry the same weight, going up stairs, the one on the bottom bears more. Pretty simple. If the bearing is in the same plane as the LP, tracking pressure is more constant with warp and bass modulation than if one side is elevated. I'm sure you can work this out (geometry involved),  if not try volunteering to help someone move.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Furthermore there are literally 100's of tone arms on the market today, both new production, legacy and NOS so it seems like there are a lot of relevant choices. 

It is no secret that most audiophiles who are LP advocates  seem to be unaware and uninformed about the kinematics of tone arm design and operation.

Unlike more modern playback formats, LP tone arms and other playback gear seem to require frequent adjustments which few seem to understand how to perform correctly.  In the end we can only judge a format based on how it is used by those who prefer it, and if they habitually do so improperly, that is not the fault of those who prefer more modern technology.

Agreed!

Yes, it does appear that there are a lot of poorly engineered arms out there. But if they are built correctly, frequent adjustment is not needed.

Herb Papier, the developer of the Triplanar arm, noted that many arms do seem to need readjustment- what he found was that after a while in the field, quite often the bearings in the arm were damaged, requiring readjustment. The better arms use a cup and point bearing; the points were being blunted. He solved this by brute force; using a bearing so hard that it is not commercially available. His company got a security clearance to use it.  It is hard enough apparently to not fail; I've had my arm for over 10 years and it only needs adjustment if I change out the cartridge. The arm comes with a protractor so setting it up is easy, and it is arguably the most adjustable arm made.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #53 –
Quote
Are you really trying to suggest that there have been no improvements since the 1960s?? Materials science, machining technique, computer optimization, design improvements....
TOTALLY TRUE!  We no longer use vinyl or electro-mechanical recording/playback!   :D :D :D

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #55 –
Even see Jurassic Park where they bring back dinosaurs?
Loudspeaker manufacturer
 

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #56 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
...  OK imagine carrying a couch; two people required. On level ground, both carry the same weight, going up stairs, the one on the bottom bears more. Pretty simple. If the bearing is in the same plane as the LP, tracking pressure is more constant with warp and bass modulation than if one side is elevated. I'm sure you can work this out (geometry involved),  if not try volunteering to help someone move.  ...

This is a second order effect. For all sane geometries and amounts of "warp and bass", the tracking force change due to geometry is a very small fraction of the static tracking force. Tracking force change causes cantilever deflection, which causes signal output. The magnitude of this is swamped by the inertia of the arm movement excited by the aforementioned warps and bass modulation.
Another second order effect of not being in the same plane is  the velocity change of the stylus relative to the record  as the geometry changes. Again, for all sane geometries this is a small effect.

As for gimbal bearings, Triplanar weren't unique. Many manufacturers used very hard materials such as tungsten carbide and zircon to reduce wear. Personally, I developed a preference for unipivots. I found the the dynamic damping produced the best results when faced with the warped and rippled discs common in the 80s.
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #57 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on

What are the details and authority for this claim?

I know that vinyl advocates  like to pretend that there have been dramatic improvements in LP technology since the 1960s but when politely asked to provide details and authority for those exceptional claims, they seem to go silent.


That could well be because you are invoking stares of incredulity. Going through the immensity of data to try to convince a person who won't be regardless is likely seen as a Sisyphean task.

Actually, finding evidence of technological progress is very easy if one has any concept of academic research, a field that was commonly introduced to middle school, high school, and university students when I was a pup. Research is greatly facilitated in these days of easy searching via search engines and online databases of periodicals, patents and research papers.  I guess you never got the memo!

The fact Mr. Atmasphere (or is it Stratosphere or even the vacuum of outer space?) that you are so obviously ignorant of modern tools for technical research or incompetent in their use suggests that you have some kind of learning or reading impediment or intellectual deficit. Or, you may be cursed with the Dunning Kruger Syndrome where you simply think that you have no need for research because you already know it all.

Attached is reliable evidence of a stagnant technololgy as evidenced by relvant patents:  We see that in the early days of phonographs (starting in 1860) the rate of patents granted is low because it is new technology. From about 1950 to 1985 we see a farily consistent and significant growth of patent activity, followed by a sudden leveling off  sarting in 1985. Thus it is safe to say that the rate of innovation of new phonograph technology has stagnated since 1985.

Quote
Are you really trying to suggest that there have been no improvements since the 1960s?? Materials science, machining technique, computer optimization, design improvements.... Beyond this I will allow the rock to roll back to its resting place, as have others.

Things like materials improvements and aesthetic changes are not actual direct technological improvements to phono playback technology.  Their application to phono technology is tangential. Secondly, I question whether there have been anything but aesthetic improvements, because I see no significant changes in phono playback performance since say, 1985 which is 33 years or over 3 decades ago. And when pressed on the matter, you offer nothing but posturing, talking down, and insults.


Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Please provide a technical report describing the adverse effects of building ton arms in different ways than the ones you seem to advocate without providing evidence or logic.

Its actually simpler than that.

OK imagine carrying a couch; two people required. On level ground, both carry the same weight, going up stairs, the one on the bottom bears more. Pretty simple. If the bearing is in the same plane as the LP, tracking pressure is more constant with warp and bass modulation than if one side is elevated. I'm sure you can work this out (geometry involved),  if not try volunteering to help someone move.

This is a false example as anybody who knows what its like to carry a couch upstairs looks like, as compared to a tone arm. Couches are carried upstairs at an sharp angle due to space restrictions around the stairs, and tone arms are generally operated in as close to a horizontal plane as people informed in the art of setting up tone arms can make them. This is signfificant because actual field experiments by yours truely has discovered that perchance one is able to keep the couch horizontal while lifting it up the stairs, the load is far better balanced among the two persons doing the lifting. Perhaps you've never thought of this?

Lifting couches are largely irrelevant to the adjustment and operation of tone arms because tone arms are counterbalanced and intentionally set up so that the vast majority of their weight is on the pivot end and not on the stylus end.

Furthermore, looking back at your false claims about your hobby horse Tripivot tone arm, I see that the published claims for it are "The Wheaton arm is called the Tri-Planar because its azimuth, vertical tracking angle (VTA), and vertical bearing height can be independently adjusted." Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/tri-planar-tonearm-steven-stone-tri-planar-iv-ultimate-february-1995#O5Pcj8rG3CpKGT7h.99 .  As others have observed these are, contrary to your previous false claims  not unique features and similar adjustments are available on many tone arms, both contemporary and legacy, including the SME 3009 (various versions). Notably, the Stereophile writer seems to avoid making that mistake.

To summarize Mr. Atmasphere you have exposed your mental biases and disabilities by trying to talk down to me and others on this forum. You have made many false claims. You have not answered the simple questions I politely posed to you,  and responded to them with ignorance, arrogance and insults.  I would hope that you are able to correct these problems and actually accurately, sincerily and honestly respond to  the members of this forum.


Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #58 –
 ::)

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #60 –
Vinyl has been around awhile. Just enjoy it for the antiquated technology it is and cease the idiotic claims.

Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #62 –
Quote from: splice on
Quote from: Atmasphere on
...  OK imagine carrying a couch; two people required. On level ground, both carry the same weight, going up stairs, the one on the bottom bears more. Pretty simple. If the bearing is in the same plane as the LP, tracking pressure is more constant with warp and bass modulation than if one side is elevated. I'm sure you can work this out (geometry involved),  if not try volunteering to help someone move.  ...

This is a second order effect. For all sane geometries and amounts of "warp and bass", the tracking force change due to geometry is a very small fraction of the static tracking force. Tracking force change causes cantilever deflection, which causes signal output. The magnitude of this is swamped by the inertia of the arm movement excited by the aforementioned warps and bass modulation.
Another second order effect of not being in the same plane is  the velocity change of the stylus relative to the record  as the geometry changes. Again, for all sane geometries this is a small effect.

Excellent points. Tone arm mass, inertia, and damping are far stronger effects.  Complicated collections of massy hardware may impress visiting firemen, but do nothing for the important business of maintaining consistent tracking force and avoiding geometric changes that show up in the audio as jitter.  Furthermore, the tri-planar did nothing of technical significance that was novel, as evidenced by a total absence of patents traceable to Mr. Papier. He did register a trademark, and by most accounts he was a fine watchmaker.

Quote
As for gimbal bearings, Triplanar weren't unique. Many manufacturers used very hard materials such as tungsten carbide and zircon to reduce wear. Personally, I developed a preference for unipivots. I found the the dynamic damping produced the best results when faced with the warped and rippled discs common in the 80s.

There are reliable objective measures of bearing performance, and those are friction and stiction. Easy enough to measure and manage, but yet another significant parameter in the present technical desert of audio jewelry that modern tone arms are. These things obviously sell based on glowing reviews, jazzy appearance and audiophile legends. The reason why LP hardware is rarely put through reliable testing is that in their market, bragging rights overshadow performance, which is bound to be dismal by modern standards.

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #64 –
Quote
Furthermore, the tri-planar did nothing of technical significance that was novel, as evidenced by a total absence of patents traceable to Mr. Papier.

 Triplanar developed the first on-the-fly adjustable VTA mechanism but simply didn't patent it. It has since been copied by a number of other tone arm manufacturers such as VPI.

As I mentioned earlier, Herb sorted out that bearing failure is a common problem in many arms including unipivots and solved the problem effectively.  He also did considerable work damping the arm tube so it would not resonate while playing.

Triplanar was recently investigated by the department of Homeland Security, on account of the fact that they were using more of their bearings than Boeing Aerospace was.  The arm has no bearing slop whatsoever, and sticktion is negligible compared to other designs. They test the bearings by mounting the arm on a wall, moving the arm to its limit and letting go of it; it should still be moving hours later.

Because of its low mass and low sticktion, it seems that it often has less tracking angle error than most straight tracking arms.

There are also a number of radial tracking arms that have zero tracking angle error, not unlike the old Garrard zero 100, but at a much more refined level.

So while there was not much innovation seen in patents. there is indeed considerable refinement since the 1960s.

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #65 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote
Furthermore, the tri-planar did nothing of technical significance that was novel, as evidenced by a total absence of patents traceable to Mr. Papier.

 Triplanar developed the first on-the-fly adjustable VTA mechanism but simply didn't patent it. It has since been copied by a number of other tone arm manufacturers such as VPI.

Here is what seems to be a well-thought out critique of the Tri-Planar VTA adjusting system:

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html



"
(Tri Planar's) VTA adjuster clicks equate to 0.35 thousandths of an inch according to Mr Gregory. As there are 26mm in an inch that translates to 0.00035x26 = 0.0091mm, i.e less than one hundredth of a mm... He says that changes of +/-2 clicks produce a "vital" change in sound quality. So once you've found that sweet-spot a change of 0.018 mm (2x0.0091) will lose that perfect reproduction. Now just to drive that point home that 0.018 mm equates to a 0.00342 (0.19x0.018) degree change in SRA. Just over THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE DEGREE!
"

In short, the Tri Planar is based on false technology and any claims for improved sound quality are inherently fraudulent.

Reference: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3213

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #66 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Triplanar was recently investigated by the department of Homeland Security, on account of the fact that they were using more of their bearings than Boeing Aerospace was.
Some claims are so incredulous that they have to be treated with the utmost suspicion.
The suggestion that a small scale manufacturer of a niche audiophile product consumes more of a part than the world's largest aerospace manufacturer is just plain bonkers. If it is true that Triplanar use more of these than Boeing, it can only be because Boeing don't use them at all.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #67 –
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #68 –
It's just amazing that I ever heard any recorded music for the first twenty or thirty years of my life. Turns out that what we were all doing was so difficult it must have been impossible!
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #69 –
Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Triplanar was recently investigated by the department of Homeland Security, on account of the fact that they were using more of their bearings than Boeing Aerospace was.
Some claims are so incredulous that they have to be treated with the utmost suspicion.
The suggestion that a small scale manufacturer of a niche audiophile product consumes more of a part than the world's largest aerospace manufacturer is just plain bonkers. If it is true that Triplanar use more of these than Boeing, it can only be because Boeing don't use them at all.

The implication is that substantial numbers of the tone arm was sold, which is of course highly unlikely, especially given how fragmented the market is.

Furthermore, one of the ironies of life is that so many traditional tone arms are still being sold, for such high prices when their inherent technical problems have been solved for decades at competitive prices.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #70 –
Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Triplanar was recently investigated by the department of Homeland Security, on account of the fact that they were using more of their bearings than Boeing Aerospace was.
Some claims are so incredulous that they have to be treated with the utmost suspicion.
The suggestion that a small scale manufacturer of a niche audiophile product consumes more of a part than the world's largest aerospace manufacturer is just plain bonkers. If it is true that Triplanar use more of these than Boeing, it can only be because Boeing don't use them at all.

Turns out they like Pink Floyd. They had all the shipping manifests going back years; they knew where every arm went. Not sure what Boeing uses them for, apparently Homeland Security wasn't saying; imagine that. You have to have a security clearance to get the bearings in the first place; Triplanar has been using them so long they were grandfathered in.

Quote
(Tri Planar's) VTA adjuster clicks equate to 0.35 thousandths of an inch according to Mr Gregory. As there are 26mm in an inch that translates to 0.00035x26 = 0.0091mm, i.e less than one hundredth of a mm... He says that changes of +/-2 clicks produce a "vital" change in sound quality. So once you've found that sweet-spot a change of 0.018 mm (2x0.0091) will lose that perfect reproduction. Now just to drive that point home that 0.018 mm equates to a 0.00342 (0.19x0.018) degree change in SRA. Just over THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE DEGREE!

Sounds like whomever wrote this was not familiar with the arm. And apparently neither was Mr. Gregory. There aren't any 'clicks' and the claims are not those of  Triplanar. But It is well-known that the arm height has to be set right and the VTA tower allows you to do that easily. Its continuously variable and has two scales, one for coarse and one for fine. I know some audiophiles like to experiment with VTA to see what sounds better- some go so far as to mark their LPs with what they think is the correct setting, which is repeatable and easy to do. My main concern is being able to set the arm so that the cartridge does not break up regardless of the track being played and in that regard, the Triplanar excels. A more practical use of the VTA tower is that the arm has no removable headshell so as to reduce resonance and increase rigidity; so if you want to use various cartridges its easy to switch between them and simply dial in the VTA if you know it in advance.

There are audiophiles that obsess about SRA (stylus rake angle) which on average is 92 degrees. I like to point out to them that this is an average, and might not be the best possible setting on an particular LP, simply on account of the fact that the mastering engineer has to replace the cutter stylus about once every 10 hours (or less) of use, and when setting up the new stylus is not looking for 92 degrees but instead is looking for the cut with the lowest noise (which is a combination of rake angle and stylus temperature).

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #71 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on

Triplanar was recently investigated by the department of Homeland Security, on account of the fact that they were using more of their bearings than Boeing Aerospace was. 

Reference?

A googling shows zero evidence of this other than a handful of  niche audio cultists (and more saliently here, those selling said cultists overpriced bullshit with zero objective evidence to justify their extraordinary claims) repeating the same bullshit on several message boards.

I'm fairly certain that the great Philo of Byzantium was using a hell of a lot more gimbal constructs, for inkwells, than Boeing ever has, but that's comparably meaningless, although almost certainly better founded in physical reality.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #72 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Triplanar was recently investigated by the department of Homeland Security, on account of the fact that they were using more of their bearings than Boeing Aerospace was.
Some claims are so incredulous that they have to be treated with the utmost suspicion.
The suggestion that a small scale manufacturer of a niche audiophile product consumes more of a part than the world's largest aerospace manufacturer is just plain bonkers. If it is true that Triplanar use more of these than Boeing, it can only be because Boeing don't use them at all.

Turns out they like Pink Floyd. They had all the shipping manifests going back years; they knew where every arm went. Not sure what Boeing uses them for, apparently Homeland Security wasn't saying; imagine that. You have to have a security clearance to get the bearings in the first place; Triplanar has been using them so long they were grandfathered in.

Quote
(Tri Planar's) VTA adjuster clicks equate to 0.35 thousandths of an inch according to Mr Gregory. As there are 26mm in an inch that translates to 0.00035x26 = 0.0091mm, i.e less than one hundredth of a mm... He says that changes of +/-2 clicks produce a "vital" change in sound quality. So once you've found that sweet-spot a change of 0.018 mm (2x0.0091) will lose that perfect reproduction. Now just to drive that point home that 0.018 mm equates to a 0.00342 (0.19x0.018) degree change in SRA. Just over THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE DEGREE!

Sounds like whomever wrote this was not familiar with the arm. And apparently neither was Mr. Gregory. There aren't any 'clicks' and the claims are not those of  Triplanar. But It is well-known that the arm height has to be set right and the VTA tower allows you to do that easily. Its continuously variable and has two scales, one for coarse and one for fine. I know some audiophiles like to experiment with VTA to see what sounds better- some go so far as to mark their LPs with what they think is the correct setting, which is repeatable and easy to do. My main concern is being able to set the arm so that the cartridge does not break up regardless of the track being played and in that regard, the Triplanar excels. A more practical use of the VTA tower is that the arm has no removable headshell so as to reduce resonance and increase rigidity; so if you want to use various cartridges its easy to switch between them and simply dial in the VTA if you know it in advance.

There are audiophiles that obsess about SRA (stylus rake angle) which on average is 92 degrees. I like to point out to them that this is an average, and might not be the best possible setting on an particular LP, simply on account of the fact that the mastering engineer has to replace the cutter stylus about once every 10 hours (or less) of use, and when setting up the new stylus is not looking for 92 degrees but instead is looking for the cut with the lowest noise (which is a combination of rake angle and stylus temperature).

The important lesson is that due to the length of the arm, setting VTA by adjusting the height of the tonearm pivot by reasonable amounts is ineffective.  For each degree of change in VTA, the pivot of a typical 9 inch arm has to be moved vertically by approximately 0.16" or about 1/6 of an  inch. It is thus far more effective to modify VTA by a means of an adjustment that is in close vicinity to the cartridge.

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #73 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on

The important lesson is that due to the length of the arm, setting VTA by adjusting the height of the tonearm pivot by reasonable amounts is ineffective.  For each degree of change in VTA, the pivot of a typical 9 inch arm has to be moved vertically by approximately 0.16" or about 1/6 of an  inch. It is thus far more effective to modify VTA by a means of an adjustment that is in close vicinity to the cartridge.

If your initial setup is even in the ballpark, often a degree or two is all you need. The Triplanar VTA tower has a range of about an inch so ideally it can do several degrees in either direction. There is a standard of sorts for the plinth to platter height so this bit is usually pretty easy. Any VTA adjustment closer to the cartridge would introduce mass issues and might also cause a lack of rigidity in the locus of the cartridge (both which seem to be bad things), plus you would not be able to do it on the fly.

Re: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #74 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote
Furthermore, the tri-planar did nothing of technical significance that was novel, as evidenced by a total absence of patents traceable to Mr. Papier.

 Triplanar developed the first on-the-fly adjustable VTA mechanism but simply didn't patent it. It has since been copied by a number of other tone arm manufacturers such as VPI.

Here is what seems to be a well-thought out critique of the Tri-Planar VTA adjusting system:

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html



"
(Tri Planar's) VTA adjuster clicks equate to 0.35 thousandths of an inch according to Mr Gregory. As there are 26mm in an inch that translates to 0.00035x26 = 0.0091mm, i.e less than one hundredth of a mm... He says that changes of +/-2 clicks produce a "vital" change in sound quality. So once you've found that sweet-spot a change of 0.018 mm (2x0.0091) will lose that perfect reproduction. Now just to drive that point home that 0.018 mm equates to a 0.00342 (0.19x0.018) degree change in SRA. Just over THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE DEGREE!
"

In short, the Tri Planar is based on false technology and any claims for improved sound quality are inherently fraudulent.

Reference: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3213



Although you swapped VPI for Triplanar in that quote, I must say that the website was quite a fun read. I hadn't expected this level of honesty ("I simply can't hear any difference") from an audiophile website :-).
"What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
- Christopher Hitchens
"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge"
- Sam Harris
 
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