Skip to main content

Poll

https://surveynuts.com/surveys/take?id=129486&c=2506331033FTLT

.
[ 4 ] (57.1%)
.
[ 3 ] (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Topic: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs (Read 21989 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #75
The point of the Sound Blaster SNR ratio was not to show a shortcoming. It was just a single example of a DAC that has higher SNR than the ajinfla-recommended Yamaha, yet it still has a noise floor that is very possible to make audible.

I don't have to exceed threshold of pain if I play silence or a very silent signal heavily amplified. You can play it quiet as a whisper and still hear it.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #76
Testing at a volume level which exceeds the
threshold of pain
for
Quote
peak levels
...is a quite silly method to determine the relative sound quality between DACs for the purpose of listening to content.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #77
Are you worried that I post ABX logs showing ability to hear difference between noise levels so you pre-emptively attack random device so it doesn't count as a proper DAC?
I am under the impression that it is you who's thrashing about randomly here.

Quote
Using equipment loud is not against proper functionality. The test doesn't say you have to play music nor does it state playback level is limited to some arbitrary values. It simply asks if there are audible differences.
Can we get a few trivialities out of the way once and for all, please?
  • If you crank up the volume enough, background noise will become audible.
  • If devices have differing background noise levels, you can tell them apart if you crank up the volume enough.
  • You need to go through some extra verification steps to establish which device in a chain is the worst noise contributor.
  • You can compromise the apparent SNR of a device quite easily by working with a poor gain structure.
Now, can you please refrain from suggesting that ajinfla or anybody else here doesn't know this perfectly well? I.e. refrain from nonsense like this:
Quote
Do you really think several dBs of volume difference in significantly amplified background hiss is not audible?
Of course this can be made audible by enough amplification. We all know this!

You need neither polls nor measurements to establish such a triviality. If the poll were about that, it would be an obvious idiocy.

The only halfway sensible question would be whether the difference is audible under realistic listening conditions. I have a concept of realistic listening conditions, but perhaps you haven't. There are typical sound levels associated with this, and typical levels of background noise coming from the surroundings. It's not about anechoic chambers, and it is not about listening to music at painful levels. You're free to come forward with your definition of a realistic listening environment, and based on that we can discuss which levels of background noise are likely to be audible, and which aren't.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #78
There you go Case, an appeal to intellectual honesty.

Sorry for piling-on in what may be viewed as a less than constructive way, Pelmazo.

What is the sound of a resistor terminated at one end?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #79
And what do the measurements have to do with the matter anyway?

The point of the Sound Blaster SNR ratio was not to show a shortcoming. It was just a single example of a DAC that has higher SNR than the ajinfla-recommended Yamaha, yet it still has a noise floor that is very possible to make audible.
Wow, you need to make up your mind. Are your measurements valid or not? Are they measuring the SNR at max output at the headphone jack? Where is your evidence of this....and this being audible. as you claim??
The Yamahas have "spec'd" SNRs lower than your purported number, which you haven't shown. There were zero measurements of the Yamaha in this thread. You're really grasping here.

I don't have to exceed threshold of pain if I play silence or a very silent signal heavily amplified. You can play it quiet as a whisper and still hear it.
So you claim. Using 16bit files?

You and ajinfla are now acting like the audiophiles trying to counter credit any piece of hardware because it's not expensive / good enough.
Projection

Are you worried that I post ABX logs showing ability to hear difference between noise levels
No, since you have shown zero correlation to DACs as the source.

Using equipment loud is not against proper functionality. The test doesn't say you have to play music nor does it state playback level is limited to some arbitrary values. It simply asks if there are audible differences.

Do you really think several dBs of volume difference in significantly amplified background hiss is not audible?
What does that have to do with DACs??

So how many bits do you require for music?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #80
You and ajinfla are now acting like the audiophiles trying to counter credit any piece of hardware because it's not expensive / good enough.
Projection
I hear noise from all sound cards and phones but then I don't have a $30.000 DAC to test with.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #81
Of course this can be made audible by enough amplification. We all know this!
Except greynol and ajinfla who are arguing against this.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #82
Except greynol and ajinfla who are arguing against this.
Nope, just your purported "DAC noise".
Now when you claim to hear this "DAC noise", what >16 bit files are you listening to?
Are the polled believers hearing this same noise as you? Using the same "DAC noise" finding method?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #83
Case, I do wonder why you prefer to listen to the noise produced by DACs instead of what is generally considered to be music. I know that musical tastes differ, but this seems extreme.
You won't win the argument by saying that if you amplify the DAC output enough, you'll always hear noise. That's a "well, duh". What matters is if you hear the noise while listening to music - and the final answer to that is if you do, you're "doing it wrong."
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #84
There you go Case, an appeal to intellectual honesty.
Except greynol and ajinfla who are arguing against this.
Which you apparently can't manage to muster.

This has gone on for far too long. You can't seriously be this dense.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #85
Of course this can be made audible by enough amplification. We all know this!
Except greynol and ajinfla who are arguing against this.


I don't see that at all.  You might want to reconsider your view of the conversation.  I'm 100% with pelmazo , you've built an argument upon a narrow band of pedantic trivialities and are (supposedly) shocked nobody else is in agreement.
Creature of habit.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #86
Now when you claim to hear this "DAC noise", what >16 bit files are you listening to?
Attached is a sample file you can test your DACs with.

Case, I do wonder why you prefer to listen to the noise produced by DACs instead of what is generally considered to be music. I know that musical tastes differ, but this seems extreme.
You won't win the argument by saying that if you amplify the DAC output enough, you'll always hear noise. That's a "well, duh". What matters is if you hear the noise while listening to music - and the final answer to that is if you do, you're "doing it wrong."
The question was simple: what audible differences do DACs have. People who examine lossy codec artifacts for example do amplify sound to hear quiet parts better and no one complains. It's only now suddenly a problem when someone disagrees with your initial ridicule of the poll author.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #87
The question was simple: what audible differences do DACs have. People who examine lossy codec artifacts for example do amplify sound to hear quiet parts better and no one complains.
It is absolutely ok to turn up the volume when trying to listen to the background noise. DAC designers may well do that in order to determine if there's something in the noise they didn't expect. It can be a troubleshooting technique that complements measurements. Pretty similar to codec artifacts, indeed.

But are you seriously suggesting that this is what the poll is, or should be, about? Let me repeat: That would be obvious nonsense. You don't need a poll for that, and doing a poll on it could only reveal either the uninformedness of the participants, or otherwise facts that nobody seriously disputes anyway.

Quote
It's only now suddenly a problem when someone disagrees with your initial ridicule of the poll author.
No, you just refuse to admit that you dug yourself into a hole.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #88
I'm not in any hole. Only people in some kind of a hole are the ones who have dragged this argument for pages upon pages hoping to somehow turn facts around.

The nonsense options in the poll are the audiophilery instrument separation / soundstage differences. It also contained options for real differences like this noise floor issue and the impedance affected frequency response choise. We don't know the motivation of the poll author but my answer is honest and truthful.

If the poll was for example about use of a DAC in scientific research about human hearing limits, would you still think my noise floor answer is nonsense?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #89
But are you seriously suggesting that this is what the poll is, or should be, about? Let me repeat: That would be obvious nonsense.

It's his pole. He's targeting believers, so it is of a religious nature: what is the point of arguing the cold logic of it all?
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #90
I'm not in any hole. Only people in some kind of a hole are the ones who have dragged this argument for pages upon pages hoping to somehow turn facts around.
That's your view on it; I haven't seen anyone turning around facts, certainly not obvious ones. You are trying to make it look as if greynol and/or ajinfla had asserted that there are no noise floor differences between DACs. I think one has to be quite malicious to interpret their writing in this way. They have (unsuccessfully so far) tried to get you to think about the relevance of this for the audibility question in any practical sense.

Quote
The nonsense options in the poll are the audiophilery instrument separation / soundstage differences. It also contained options for real differences like this noise floor issue and the impedance affected frequency response choise. We don't know the motivation of the poll author but my answer is honest and truthful.
Well, so is everybody else's, as far as I can tell. Obviously, honesty doesn't necessarily imply open-mindedness.

Quote
If the poll was for example about use of a DAC in scientific research about human hearing limits, would you still think my noise floor answer is nonsense?
You're trying to find a context in which your position makes sense? Well, look further. Scientific research on the limits of human hearing has been done successfully with equipment that was much inferior to today's equipment, particularly regarding noise. It means that as a scientific experimenter, you have to be aware of the limitations of your equipment, and design the test setup in a way that reduces the influence of these limitations to the point where it doesn't significantly impact your test result. That's the bread and butter of all scientific work.

In the case you are mentioning, if you chose to employ a DAC in testing the limits of human hearing, you could fairly easily devise a test setup that would make do comfortably with a DAC of only 8 bit resolution. If you don't immediately see how, then you should perhaps not rush to present scientific arguments.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #91
It's his pole. He's targeting believers, so it is of a religious nature: what is the point of arguing the cold logic of it all?
Case isn't the poll opener, is he? Or what do you mean, exactly?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #92
Attached is a sample file you can test your DACs with.
I'm not interested in samples files or "testing" my DACs with your concocted pathological scenario.
Your evasion of the simple question provides the answer: you don't use noisy 16 bit files, because with 16 bits, if you crank the bejeebs out of the volume...noise. Ooops. Now 16 bits is no good. "Noisy". Easy to identify from "better" 24 bit.

The question was simple: what audible differences do DACs have. People who examine lossy codec artifacts for example do amplify sound to hear quiet parts better and no one complains. It's only now suddenly a problem when someone disagrees with your initial ridicule of the poll author.
The next question you evade is how you isolate noise to DAC, not upstream or downstream. Where does the poll ask believers whether they use the specious Case-DAC-noise detection/isolation method?

If I listened to your files on my A800 AVR and did something idiotic like max the gain during silent parts with my 100db sensitivity speakers, any noise heard is "DAC noise"?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #93
Plug headphones into a soundcard that doesn't mute its output when it's unused and you hear noise. If output gets muted play a 24 bit file that has noise in last bit. I hear noise from all sound cards and phones but then I don't have a $30.000 DAC to test with. Are you suggesting all my sound sources are improper?
In a word, yes.  One reason is that I have a number of computer systems that are totally quiet when they are not playing and AFAIK lack muting.  The comment about hearing a noisy LSB in a 24 bit file is particularly telling. In a proper 24 bit system the LSB is about 140 db down. If you properly set the max FSB level to something uncomfortably loud but not damaging for normal or even reasonably damaged hearing, 140 dB down is still dozens of dB's below audibility. Besides without liquid nitrogen baths or other heroic cooling, audio gear capable of such exceptional performance can't exist.


Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #94
But are you seriously suggesting that this is what the poll is, or should be, about? Let me repeat: That would be obvious nonsense.

It's his pole. He's targeting believers, so it is of a religious nature: what is the point of arguing the cold logic of it all?
The point is that he's asking people to break their agreement with the TOS. It is a trick to turn us into liars.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #95
The point of the Sound Blaster SNR ratio was not to show a shortcoming. It was just a single example of a DAC that has higher SNR than the ajinfla-recommended Yamaha, yet it still has a noise floor that is very possible to make audible.

It is true that one can hear the noise floor of just about any active component by setting up a flawed system with improper gain staging. Introducing grounding problems can also accomplish that, if listening to equipment behaving badly is your goal.

Quote
I don't have to exceed threshold of pain if I play silence or a very silent signal heavily amplified. You can play it quiet as a whisper and still hear it.

Sounds like you have a gain staging problem.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #96
Of course this can be made audible by enough amplification. We all know this!
Except greynol and ajinfla who are arguing against this.

You may be wrongheaded enough to believe this, but I think I know these gentlemen better than that.

What they are arguing against is blaming setup mistakes on good equipment.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #97
You are arguing that DACs can be used in a way that their limitations are not an issue. That's ok. The question wasn't that but if DACs can have audible differences.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #98
Now when you claim to hear this "DAC noise", what >16 bit files are you listening to?
Attached is a sample file you can test your DACs with.

Case, I do wonder why you prefer to listen to the noise produced by DACs instead of what is generally considered to be music. I know that musical tastes differ, but this seems extreme.
You won't win the argument by saying that if you amplify the DAC output enough, you'll always hear noise. That's a "well, duh". What matters is if you hear the noise while listening to music - and the final answer to that is if you do, you're "doing it wrong."
The question was simple: what audible differences do DACs have. People who examine lossy codec artifacts for example do amplify sound to hear quiet parts better and no one complains. It's only now suddenly a problem when someone disagrees with your initial ridicule of the poll author.


I get it now. You have conflated normal listening for the sake of the music with diagnostic listening for reasons of technical diagnosis. Friendly advice:  Don't do that!

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs

Reply #99
You are arguing that DACs can be used in a way that their limitations are not an issue. That's ok. The question wasn't that but if DACs can have audible differences.

More friendly advice: Everything in the real world has limits.

You get no points for finding that out. You do get points for achieving the goal of blameless performance with reasonable cost in terms of time and material.

Now that we have settled that little misunderstanding, please let me add that it is how reasonable or unreasonable the usage has to be for the gear to be audibly blameless that is of the essence.


 
SimplePortal 1.0.0 RC1 © 2008-2019