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https://surveynuts.com/surveys/take?id=129486&c=2506331033FTLT

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    4 (66.7%)
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    2 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Topic: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs (Read 9320 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • Case
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  • Developer (Donating)
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #100
The next question you evade is how you isolate noise to DAC, not upstream or downstream.
I didn't think this needs to be spelled out. You keep everything the same except DAC and observe the difference.

I get it now. You have conflated normal listening for the sake of the music with diagnostic listening for reasons of technical diagnosis. Friendly advice:  Don't do that!
The question didn't mention music or what it was about. Every counter argument the opposition has makes that assumption.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #101
The next question you evade is how you isolate noise to DAC, not upstream or downstream.
I didn't think this needs to be spelled out. You keep everything the same except DAC and observe the difference.

I get it now. You have conflated normal listening for the sake of the music with diagnostic listening for reasons of technical diagnosis. Friendly advice:  Don't do that!
The question didn't mention music or what it was about. Every counter argument the opposition has makes that assumption.

Neither did my answer in post 99. I anticipated the above attempt to win the debate by means of obfuscation. Let's try to find some truth?

  • pelmazo
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #102
The question wasn't that but if DACs can have audible differences.
With enough creativity and/or bloody-mindedness, you can turn almost anything into an audible difference. On this level, cables also can have audible differences: Just devise a setup that is sensitive to cable capacitance, for example, and voilĂ , you've shown cable sound. I have little tolerance for this kind of bullshit. It is a deliberate attempt to construe an issue where there is none, because it is detached from the normal circumstances of use.

But feel free to carry on with such demonstrations of your ignorance, you've lost credibility already, so nothing left to lose anyway.

Quote
The question didn't mention music or what it was about. Every counter argument the opposition has makes that assumption.
The assumption is entirely reasonable. Not assuming this leads to the kind of nonsense that you are peddling.

  • Case
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  • Developer (Donating)
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #103
Sorry you feel that way. I thought we were after the truth and facts, not clever puns or insults.
I suppose I should be happy that at least someone admists that audible differences can be real, even if they feel strong need to explain why it's unimportant.

  • Case
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  • Developer (Donating)
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #104
Also, all this pointless argument could have been avoided had someone said: "yes, noise can be audible but it doesn't matter for music listening", to which I'd have replied: "true". Instead people did argue that noise is inaudible and now _I_ lost credibility for insisting that their claim is not accurate.

  • ajinfla
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #105
I suppose I should be happy that at least someone admists that audible differences can be real
Yep, with 16bit pathological vs 24bit. Admit it Case, you're a Hi-Rezer at heart.  ;)
Straight from their playbook.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • ajinfla
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #106
Also, all this pointless argument could have been avoided..
..if the Pollster didn't press your "noise" button. Finally a poll with something that rings relevant, DAC "noise"
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • pelmazo
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #107
Also, all this pointless argument could have been avoided had someone said: "yes, noise can be audible but it doesn't matter for music listening", to which I'd have replied: "true". Instead people did argue that noise is inaudible and now _I_ lost credibility for insisting that their claim is not accurate.
To use a somewhat exaggerated example: Your stance seems to me like belaboring the (correct) argument that mass is speed dependent (see relativity), when the general topic is car races (where the effect is insignificant). And when people try to get you back to the floor and make you consider the relevance of your point to the topic at hand, you blame everyone else for not agreeing with your theoretically correct argument.

  • Case
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  • Developer (Donating)
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #108
Your example isn't only exaggerated but it's not accurate. No one agreed with me one bit but demanded proof of audibility.

  • pelmazo
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #109
You don't get it.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #110
[quote aut
Quote
hor=Case link=msg=937269 date=1490446869]
Sorry you feel that way. I thought we were after the truth and facts, not clever puns or insults.

Sorry, that card is not available for you to play. I already played it in post 99 and follow-on post 101.

B.y taking the position that no DAC should create audible artifacts, no matter how badly installed, you appear to be running in the opposite direction of useful information, or truth.

I am reminded of a DBT critic that I encountered on another forum who characterized DBTs as tests designed to obfuscate clearly audible artifacts.


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I suppose I should be happy that at least someone admits that audible differences can be real,

And you call that sort of excluded-middle blather tinged with passive aggressive language a step in the direction of "truth and facts"?

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even if they feel strong need to explain why it's unimportant.

Is this how you dismiss reasonable questions about relevance?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #111
You don't get it.

He appears to be tying himself in knots in his efforts at not seeing what should be obvious.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #112
Your example isn't only exaggerated but it's not accurate. No one agreed with me one bit but demanded proof of audibility.

So in your book, asking for reliable evidence of audibility is a bad thing?

I can read this sort of thing over at CA.

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #113
It's his pole. He's targeting believers, so it is of a religious nature: what is the point of arguing the cold logic of it all?
Case isn't the poll opener, is he? Or what do you mean, exactly?

Doh! Sorry, yes. It's not his poll. Don't mind me: it must have too early or too late, or not enough tea. Or something

I'll let myself out ...

 :-[  :-[  :-[
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

  • splice
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #114
Also, all this pointless argument could have been avoided had someone said: "yes, noise can be audible but it doesn't matter for music listening", to which I'd have replied: "true".

Several people have said that, me included.

Instead people did argue that noise is inaudible and now _I_ lost credibility for insisting that their claim is not accurate.

As has been pointed out several times, sometimes it's better to let it slide rather than insist on being right. 
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #115
Why do you have the need to be so hostile and harm the guy's research? Sometimes I don't understand this place.

You don't do "research" using on line polls.  That should surely be obvious to anyone who has the least idea of how proper polling is done.
Ed Seedhouse
VA7SDH

  • ajinfla
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #116
You don't do "research" using on line polls.
What if it's research into how to troll with online polls?

Anyhow, maybe Case can start a new poll: "What are the audible differences between 16bit and 24bit Hi Rez?"
1) Frequency response
2) "Metallic sound"
3) Noise floor.....
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • krabapple
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #117
Quote from: Case
Also, all this pointless argument could have been avoided had someone said: "yes, noise can be audible but it doesn't matr for music listening", to which I'd have replied: "true".
.
.
.
Your example isn't only exaggerated but it's not accurate. No one agreed with me one bit but demanded proof of audibility.

Such falsehoods make Baby Jebus cry.

I replied to you with this on March 21:
"Lots of things 'can be audible' under extreme circumstances.   Cranking the volume during 'silence', for example.   That doesn't mean the noise matters *at all* during normal volume playback."

So  , right there  I 1)'admitted' that routinely inaudible noise can be made audible and 2) told you it didn't matter for normal listening


  • Last Edit: 26 March, 2017, 05:21:49 PM by krabapple

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #118
You can easily substitute "anything but idiotically pathological" for normal.

But then again, how could I dare say such a thing if I thought DACs had no noise floor?
  • Last Edit: 26 March, 2017, 08:02:26 PM by greynol
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • Neb9
  • [*]
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #119
People who think that there is an audible difference between DACs is the only demographic which I am interested in for this poll.
For example: If I want to know what specifically republicans think of trump, I am not going to ask democrats "what do you think of trump". Vice versa. It's not going to be helpful in answering the question.
This is not a poll aimed at people interested in audio on the whole, just to people who believe there is a difference.

What is so hard to understand about this? Do you think I am going to say "based on these results there is an audible difference"??
I want to know which aspects people believe audibly differed from DAC to DAC. Do I believe there is a difference between DACs? That's irrelevant. I want to answer said question. I am not trying to determine if there are audible differences or not between DACS with this poll. Just what the believed differences are.
  • Last Edit: 02 April, 2017, 02:03:40 AM by Neb9

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #120
You picked the absolute wrong community for your fishing expedition.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • ajinfla
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Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #121
People who think that there is an audible difference between DACs is the only demographic which I am interested in for this troll.
Yep
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #122
He's researching audiophools. Why is his problem. And looking for them here was his mistake. I'm sure there will be plenty of takers elsewhere.

The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #123
Unfortunately there are audiophools here too.  Luckily most of them confine themselves to the fb2k section.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: (poll) What are the audible differences between dedicated DACs
Reply #124
It's a dangerous world. I'm already a recovering audiophile. Who knows how far I could fall if I went into regression.

Ugly!
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain