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Topic: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128 (Read 2198 times) previous topic - next topic
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Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Hi all,
I'm a new foobar2000 user.
My current setup is:
Win10 x64
Yamaha CD-S2100 used as USB dac
Yamaha Steinberg ASIO driver V1.9.8
foobar2000 v1.3.14
foo_out_asio 2.1.2
foo_input_sacd 1.0.5

Music reproduction is fine and smooth.
Music tracks encoded in PCM up to 192KHz and DSD64 are reproduced perfectly.
The DAC correctly reports on the local display the music format sent to it: no problem at all.
The only format that causes troubles is DSD128 (5.6MHz) where foobar reports the error message
"Unrecoverable playback error: Sample rate of 352800 Hz not supported by this device"
 I have also tried adding AsioProxy but with the same result.
The DAC is able to reproduce DSD128 streams.

Can someone help me to find a solution to this glitch?

Best regards.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #1
What devices are available in File->Preferences->Playback->Output->Device? Which of available devices you tried?

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #2
The available outputs reported by foobar are:
ASIO: Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO
DSD: ASIO: Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO

The first output seems able to reproduce only PCM formats up to 192KHz (the max value supported by the dac): when sending a DSD64 stream to this output the DAC reports 44.1KHz on the local display and no audible output is emitted.
 
The second output works with PCM formats up to 192KHz and with DSD64.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #3
Everything looks like foobar2000 and the ASIO plugin are working fine, but the DAC's USB driver and/or the DAC proper doesn't handle DSD128.  When I look at Yamaha's web site I don't see a direct reference to DSD128 and I do see statements like "DSD playback via 192 kHz, 24-bit USB DAC" which is too slow to support DSD128.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #4
I think that there is a big typo/format error on the Yamaha customer manual when it refers to "DSD playback via 192KHz, 24-bit USB DAC": it simply has no sense at all.
I must report again that DSD playback works fine.

The compatibility between foobar and CD-S2100 is reported clearly on a pdf document titled "Reference Information: playing back DSD audio using foobar2000" available in the download area of the Yamaha support site.
This document also clearly states the compatibility with the DSD128 format.
The only problem with this document is the following phrase in the first page:
"the documentation is based on information as at May 2013 (We have no plans to offer updates)".
Foobar has changed from May 2013 so also the ASIO driver versions: for example today AsioProxy isn't required by foobar.

What is strange, for me of course, is the error message reported by foobar when I try to reproduce a DSD128 stream.
The number "352800" in the message is exactly "176400*2": this seems to my eyes some form of the default DSD to PCM conversion multiplied by 2 i.e. DSD128 to PCM.
Another thing (possibly unrelated???) is that foobar always switch the DAC to PCM mode anytime the playback of a DSD stream is paused or stopped: DSD switch back to 176.4KHz and (can be this something related to the problem?) DSD128 will (possibly?) switch back to 352.8KHz that is (by Yamaha specifications) an unsupported format.

These are, obviously, my very personal speculations.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #5
You are being confused by DoP: DSD over PCM.  The DSD isn't being converted to PCM, it's using PCM as a sneaky way to get DSD thru hardware designed for PCM to you DAC.  DoP uses a 24 bit sample for each 16 bits of DSD and uses the high 8 bits of each 24 bit sample as a flag so the DAC can tell if DoP is what's coming vs. standard PCM.  There's lots of info out there about DoP (e.g. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue60/dsd_usb.htm)

Anyway, single rate DSD is sent wrapped in 24/176.4k PCM and double rate DSD is sent in 24/352.8k PCM.

I interpret the document you refer to as a generic guide to using DSD for Yamaha DAC users, not as a spec for your particular DAC.

Indeed DoP, foobar2000, ASIO, the ASIO proxy (which you don't need any more), foo_input_sacd, etc. all support DSD128 but your posts indicate that your DAC or the USB driver for it which you are using doesn't support DSD128.

[Edit: FWIW the more recent foo_input_sacd releases support converting DSD128 (or whatever) to DSD64.  I have mine setup to convert DSD256 and greater to DSD128.]

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #6
Thank you for your explanation.

Following the excellent guide https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digfoobar2000 for dummies part3 : new experimental sacd plugin I now have a more deep knowledge of the inner working of both foobar2000 and Yamaha's dac.

For what I'm supposing to have understood, adding ASIOProxy and configuring it to output DSD128 in native (not DoP) mode, I'm now able to listen at DSD128 streams using foobar2000 and Yamaha CD-S2100 as an USB DAC.

Best regards.  
 

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #7
Hi mauri4dj

I'm guessing that you configured DSD128 on Yamaha CD-S2100 successfully. I have same issue and I have tried many configurations but no success. Can you post a little bit more details about your configuration? Foobar2000 screenshot will be much appreciated :)

Thanks in advance

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #8
Install the Yamaha ASIO driver on your computer (I suppose you are using a Windows machine, an ASIO driver is available also for Mac OS but I don't have this setup): you can find the ASIO driver in the Support/Download section at the Yamaha web site.

Install and configure the DSDTranscoder as reported in "Mode 2:  Bitperfect outputting native DSD through DSDTranscoder" contained at https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/foobar-2000-for-dummies-part-3-new-experimental-sacd-plugin-v-0-9-x/.

Enjoy your music.

P.S.
CD-S2100 supports DSD DoP mode only for DSD64, not for DSD128.
For DSD128 you must use the native DSD mode.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #9
I did everything what is described in that mode but unfortunately it isn't work for me. DSD128 track looks like playing but there is silence from speakers. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong, maybe this is something with track which I have.






Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #10
If the player's display reports "DSD 2xSpeed" the stream from foobar2000 to DAC seems ok.
Try with other tracks: you can find some free tracks in various PCM and DSD resolutions at http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #11
I did everything what is described in that mode but unfortunately it isn't work for me. DSD128 track looks like playing but there is silence from speakers. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong, maybe this is something with track which I have.

nope, you did not... I've had the same problem with CD-S2100.
the point is to use exactly the same versions of foo components as it is mentioned in Yamaha guide (https://europe.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/3/329763/CDS2100_CDS3000_PBDSDC_00_foobar2000_En.pdf), so that you use foo_out_asio 2.1.2, foo_input_sacd 0.6.4 and you shall install ASIOProxyInstall-0.6.3.exe. then configure everything as it is described in the guide and the DSD128 will play without problems.
using newer versions of Foobar components will prevent from playing DSD128.

also, you may check the latest Steinberg drivers https://www.steinberg.net/index.php?id=yamaha_steinberg_usb_driver&L=1 - however it's not needed to upgrade to play DSD128. 

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #12
Thanks, that's right I'm using the latest versions. I removed everything including drivers (I have 1.10.4 Yamaha Steinberg driver on Windows7 64bit) and I installed it again, same version. After, I have followed this guide from you and unfortunately same effect. Yamaha CD-S2100 does not recieve DSD128 signal because shows only (Fs: 176.4 kHz).

Which version of driver and foobar are you using?

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #13
be sure to set ASIO Driver mode to DSD.

these are my settings:

upload

upload

upload

upload

upload

it just must work.
Foo 1.4.6

sorry for the exotic image hosting (the first one google proposed)

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #14
Thanks, that's right I'm using the latest versions. I removed everything including drivers (I have 1.10.4 Yamaha Steinberg driver on Windows7 64bit) and I installed it again, same version. After, I have followed this guide from you and unfortunately same effect. Yamaha CD-S2100 does not recieve DSD128 signal because shows only (Fs: 176.4 kHz).

Which version of driver and foobar are you using?

If your Yamaha is reporting 176.4KHz then it is receiving DoP, else it would report 11.2MHz (native DSD)

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #15
Sorry but your links are broken. Could you fix it please?

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #16
yeah, sure






Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #17
The forum does have an upload feature, if you use the full post page.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #18
It looks like you may have skipped a step when configuring FB2K.
If you are using any of the V. 0.9.x or the 1.x.x SACD plugins make sure you install and then set up DSDTranscoder correctly for each output rate and base freq. (as per the instructions in https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/digital/pc-software/foobar-2000-for-dummies-part-3-new-experimental-sacd-plugin-v-0-9-x/).
As your Yamaha is XMOS based you should set the DSD64 row to DoP or DSD to DSD in the 44.1 column and DSD128 row to DSD.
 

 

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #19
I uploaded screenshots as board's attachments. this is my configuration that works properly with either PCM files or DSD 64/128 files (SACD ISO).

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #20
OK, thanks. Both configuration result with same effect, even on other laptop. When playback of DSD128 file is started Yamaha drivers shows (DSD 5.6 MHz) sample rate but display on device shows (Fs: 176.4 kHz). When playback of DSD64 file is started Yamaha drivers shows (DSD 2.8MHz) sample rate and DSD 1xSpeed on device.

Is that may be problem with device or some restrictions from Yamaha? Player was bought in this year.


Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #21
have You manually set Steinberg driver to 176.4 kHz so that after connecting to PC via USB Yamaha shows 176.4 kHz?

mine is fresh also, I bought it few weeks ago.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #22
No, I did nothing with that setting. Should I?

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #23
yes, you should - as per Yamaha guide.

Re: Yamaha CD-S2100 and DSD128

Reply #24
This did not change anything.

 
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