>20kHz content found in vinyl?

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Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #50 – 2017-07-02 08:06:58

Quote from: Miramis on 2017-07-01 14:50:06

According to Wikipedia “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measue the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme. Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #51 – 2017-07-14 19:16:16

Arnie, thanks for your long response, and thanks to everybody else for chiming in as well :-).

Arnie, in your opinion, should the follow sentence then be removed from the wiki on vinyl myths?
"tests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wear."

Does anybody else have an opinion on that matter?

For the rest of you: Thanks for keeping this topic alive :-).

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #52 – 2017-07-14 20:42:12

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-02 08:06:58

Quote from: Miramis on 2017-07-01 14:50:06
According to Wikipedia “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measue the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme. Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.

Something like an RIAA curve, perhaps? :-)

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #53 – 2017-07-14 20:48:30

Huh? The RIAA curve is used to apply pre-emphasis in some parts of the spectrum during recording so that corresponding de-emphasis can be applied during playback. Its goal is flat response within the audible range.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #54 – 2017-07-14 21:31:47

Quote from: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-07-14 20:42:12

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-02 08:06:58
Quote from: Miramis on 2017-07-01 14:50:06
According to Wikipedia “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measure the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme. Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.

Something like an RIAA curve, perhaps? :-)

My discussion presumes that the RIAA curve is in place.

Since I'm talking about low frequencies, the RIAA curve with about 20 dB boost at 20 Hz would be in the wrong direction.

However, the development of equalization curves was initially tasked with the goal of reducing hiss, and it does a lot of that.

If there weren't a kink in the midrange (formal name: Turnover) the RIAA playback curve would be a constant velocity curve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

"
Equalization practice for electrical recordings dates to the beginning of the art. In 1926 Joseph P. Maxwell and Henry C. Harrison from Bell Telephone Laboratories disclosed that the recording pattern of the Western Electric "rubber line" magnetic disc cutter had a constant velocity characteristic. This meant that as frequency increased in the treble, recording amplitude decreased. Conversely, in the bass as frequency decreased, recording amplitude increased. Therefore, it was necessary to attenuate the bass frequencies below about 250 Hz, the bass turnover point, in the amplified microphone signal fed to the recording head. Otherwise, bass modulation became excessive and overcutting took place, with the cutter into the next record groove. When played back electrically with a magnetic pickup having a smooth response in the bass region, a complementary boost in amplitude at the bass turnover point was necessary. G. H. Miller in 1934 reported that when complementary boost at the turnover point was used in radio broadcasts of records, the reproduction was more realistic and many of the musical instruments stood out in their true form.
"

Initially, equalization only affected the range below 250 Hz. Roll off the lows during recording to protect the cutter head from being overdriven, and boost the lows below 250 Hz during playback to restore more natural sound quality.

That got them close enough to something like fidelity so that hiss became the next major problem to solve.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #55 – 2017-07-19 20:31:54

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-02 08:06:58

Quote from: Miramis on 2017-07-01 14:50:06
According to Wikipedia “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measue the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme. Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.

What was your procedure?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #56 – 2017-07-19 22:54:19

To me, the theoretical or ideal S/N of a new-pristine record is meaningless! Noise 60dB down would be great (if we didn't have digital to compare to

).    But an average noise level of -60dB is NOT good enough... Vinyl noise is "spikey" an it's those noise spikes/peaks that are most annoying.

In the real world, most records out there are 30 or 40 years old (or older) with plenty of clearly-audible "snap", "crackle", and "pop", and I doubt the noise on most older records was never 60db down, even when they were new.   (I've got some CDs that are about 30 years old and all of the CDs I've purchased over the years sound as good as new except I remember two that I had to replace.)

You'd probably be lucky to pick-up a random record that didn't have at least one noise spike 20dB down, or worse.   And if you are unlucky, the noise spike comes where the signal-level is low, making the signal-to-noise ratio even worse!

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #57 – 2017-07-20 12:14:31

Quote from: Atmasphere on 2017-07-19 20:31:54

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-02 08:06:58
Quote from: Miramis on 2017-07-01 14:50:06
According to Wikipedia “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measure the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme. Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.

What was your procedure?

(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it. Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #58 – 2017-07-21 09:57:05

Quote from: KozmoNaut on 2016-12-28 17:05:47

Instruments are designed to produce sound in the normal range audible by humans, not in the ultrasonic range.

But they indeed produce sound above 20k

- https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #59 – 2017-07-21 10:04:34

Quote from: wqcr on 2017-07-21 09:57:05

Quote from: KozmoNaut on 2016-12-28 17:05:47
Instruments are designed to produce sound in the normal range audible by humans, not in the ultrasonic range.
But they indeed produce sound above 20k - https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.

It's only ever relevant when messing around with the sound, it's irrelevant for a distribution format.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #60 – 2017-07-21 10:18:06

Quote from: KozmoNaut on 2017-07-21 10:04:34

It's only ever relevant when messing around with the sound, it's irrelevant for a distribution format.

At times only the distribution format is available to music editors - and in this instance, higher sample rate (more captured frequency content) could prove to be useful when AV syncing - especially with PAL (25fps) -> NTSC (23.997fps) conversions.
Though in general I agree - speed manipulation of more than 10% above and below the source material is extremely rare, and for the rest of the cases, 48kHz (approx 23kHz captured) already has enough headroom.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #61 – 2017-07-21 12:27:29

Quote from: wqcr on 2017-07-21 09:57:05

Quote from: KozmoNaut on 2016-12-28 17:05:47
Instruments are designed to produce sound in the normal range audible by humans, not in the ultrasonic range.
But they indeed produce sound above 20k - https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

Just about everything produces some sound > 20 KHz. So what?

Quote

There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.

Seems relevant to almost nobody. Seems irrelevant to 99.9+% of the people who listen to music.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #62 – 2017-07-21 12:38:32

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-21 12:27:29

Just about everything produces some sound > 20 KHz. So what?

So what? I'm certain that instruments are not specifically designed to be producing sound only in audible spectrum perceived by humans. Yes, the extra frequency content could be called byproduct of their design, that however does not negate its presence.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-21 12:27:29

Quote
There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.
Seems relevant to almost nobody. Seems irrelevant to 99.9+% of the people who listen to music.

Is that to be considered personal approximation, or statistically relevant result based on evidence?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #63 – 2017-07-21 16:37:33

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-20 12:14:31

Quote
What was your procedure?

(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it. Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.

I don't know how you could set up a Rega arm well. The arm lacks some essential adjustments, making proper adjustment with most cartridges almost impossible.

If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say, its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition. You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.

Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results? Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.

What are the legacy cartridges for?? The cantilever on any cartridge really isn't going to perform properly after 4-5 years!

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #64 – 2017-07-21 18:12:44

Quote

If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say, its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition.

He said it sucks compared to digital. I said something similar. And, I'd say it sucks if you're bothered by noise.

Quote

You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.

"Bandwidth" isn't the same as frequency response, and there are differences in frequency response with different cartridges. Maybe "all high-end cartridges sound alike"... I don't know... But I'd be surprised if that were true...

Quote

Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results? Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.

How in the heck do you listen to a record without the "phono section"? It's generally not the weakest link but it's part of the problem.

And, I believe Arny said he removes the worst ticks & crackle, so that's giving an "unfair" advantage to the record, and making the results appear better than they really are.

Quote

or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition.

I'd set the bar higher... The average record is dreadful compared to digital, and records in dreadful condition are "unlistenable" to me... I'd rather listen to silence than to a scratchy-old record.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #65 – 2017-07-21 19:51:56

Man, if these last several pages don't underscore the inconvenience and inferiority of vinyl, I don't know what does.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #66 – 2017-07-21 20:50:09

Quote from: Atmasphere on 2017-07-21 16:37:33

Quote
What was your procedure?

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-20 12:14:31

(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it. Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.

Quote
I don't know how you could set up a Rega arm well. The arm lacks some essential adjustments, making proper adjustment with most cartridges almost impossible.

Details, please

I just googled up 10 articles on the Rega arm, and while they recommended upgrades of one kind or the other, none criticized the items you mentioned. Here's your challenge. I'm a degreed engineer with about 50 years of experience with mechanical mechanisms in gneral and tone arms specifically. Convince me!

Since I was not born yesterday, I fully expected your response. Needless to say, its what you get under these circumstances.

BTW, I'm holding a spoiler or two in reserve, to see if you know what you are talking about. Yyou've already tripped over one of them - you have not said anything about the other three turntables that I have. Obviously, the ION is a give-awy, but that leaves 2 that you seem to have no dirt to dish out about.

Quote
If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say,

So far you have not given any support to that claim. Until you do, it has no credibility.

Quote
its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition. You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.

Explain to me how fresh test records played with fresh cartridges of good quality be in dreadful condition. Credible evidence would take the form of technical proof of meaningfully better performance. Seeing none...

Quote
Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results?

I told you how I did that, but it seems like it shot right over your head.

Quote
Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.

If I had a phono section that was so bad that its noise or distortion drowned out or even audibly affected the copious noise that is inherent in LP playback, I'd agree with you that it was a serious problem.

Quote
What are the legacy cartridges for?? The cantilever on any cartridge really isn't going to perform properly after 4-5 years!

I guess you don't know that cantalevers have a virtually unlimited life if you don't damage them mechanically.

I guess you don't have a clue that you tell a cartridge that is too old by means of simple measurements with test records.

And I'm supposed to pretend that you are some kind of authority? If you want credibility around here you have to earn it. We all know that people who post under aliases can claim to be anybody they want and nobody can disprove it, until they fail to provide information that the person in question is supposed to have.

The challenge to produce is up to you, but so far not so much.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #67 – 2017-07-21 20:59:01

Quote from: greynol on 2017-07-21 19:51:56

Man, if these last several pages don't underscore the inconvenience and inferiority of vinyl, I don't know what does.

Agreed.

The thing that mystifies me is how hard it is to find an LP advocate who knows what they are talking about.

For example, this claim that cantilevers wear out after a few years. Cantalevers are little pieces of metal that can be bent and broken, but don't receive any wear at all in normal use. When they are bent or broken typically the cartridge won't track at all .

Cartidges are relatively simple mechanisms. When they go bad, the results always show up in simple measurements, usually pretty grossly, even gross by LP standards.

There are other parts of a cartridge that do wear out or even sometimes go bad while in storage, But our vinyl expert does not seem to know what they are.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #68 – 2017-07-21 22:51:49

You can also end up with weird tracking issues like that one time it took me a full minute to notice that I hadn't removed the cover from the cartridge!

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #69 – 2017-07-21 23:33:10

Isn't that part of the ritual?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #70 – 2017-07-21 23:53:42

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-21 20:50:09

Quote from: Atmasphere on 2017-07-21 16:37:33

Quote
What was your procedure?

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-20 12:14:31

(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it. Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.

Quote
I don't know how you could set up a Rega arm well. The arm lacks some essential adjustments, making proper adjustment with most cartridges almost impossible.

Quote
Details, please

I just googled up 10 articles on the Rega arm, and while they recommended upgrades of one kind or the other, none criticized the items you mentioned. Here's your challenge. I'm a degreed engineer with about 50 years of experience with mechanical mechanisms in gneral and tone arms specifically. Convince me!

Since I was not born yesterday, I fully expected your response. Needless to say, its what you get under these circumstances.

BTW, I'm holding a spoiler or two in reserve, to see if you know what you are talking about. Yyou've already tripped over one of them - you have not said anything about the other three turntables that I have. Obviously, the ION is a give-awy, but that leaves 2 that you seem to have no dirt to dish out about.
The Rega arm is pretty well set up if you use their cartridge. If you don't, you have a problem. You can't adjust the arm height; VTA is not adjustable. No adjustment for azimuth. No antiskate. Bearings in the plane of the arm tube rather than at the LP surface. And so on. Its built to a price point but I think the arm on the Technics SL1200 of yore is a better arm.

Quote
If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say,
Quote
So far you have not given any support to that claim. Until you do, it has no credibility.
I refer you to your own text above, to wit: "vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad. " If your LP setup is sounding bad, well, that sucks! It should sound great, with not a lot of difference between it and digital. But you are quite consistent in saying that is sounds much worse, which suggests poor setup or an inferior rig, or...?

Quote
its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition. You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.

Explain to me how fresh test records played with fresh cartridges of good quality be in dreadful condition. Credible evidence would take the form of technical proof of meaningfully better performance. Seeing none...

Well you could have left them out on the dining room table so the 14 cats you keep walked all over them, and then scratched them in the way to the turntable... I have no idea, just that it can happen (BTW, what is your test LP, when and where did you get it?). What's meant by a 'cartridge of good quality'? That sounds really subjective to me. $100? $500? $4000? Regardless of cost or 'quality' it could be damaged or poorly set up (that's my current theory, glad to have you shoot it down- what do you use for a protractor?).

Quote
Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results?

I told you how I did that, but it seems like it shot right over your head.

Or I just didn't see it, which isn't the same thing.

Quote

Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.

If I had a phono section that was so bad that its noise or distortion drowned out or even audibly affected the copious noise that is inherent in LP playback, I'd agree with you that it was a serious problem.

Quote

What's meant by 'copious noise'? QRP makes pressings that are quiet enough that if your phono section is making -75 db, its the noise floor not the LP.
Quote
What are the legacy cartridges for?? The cantilever on any cartridge really isn't going to perform properly after 4-5 years!

I guess you don't know that cantalevers have a virtually unlimited life if you don't damage them mechanically.

I guess you don't have a clue that you tell a cartridge that is too old by means of simple measurements with test records.

Hmm. So without any idea on your part, you think I don't use test records?

?? if the cantilever is not the problem, and the stylus is not the problem, are you saying that a cartridge can get too old by some other means? What would that be? Sounds like you are suggesting that the coil is failing, something in the cartridge body?

Quote

And I'm supposed to pretend that you are some kind of authority? If you want credibility around here you have to earn it. We all know that people who post under aliases can claim to be anybody they want and nobody can disprove it, until they fail to provide information that the person in question is supposed to have.

The challenge to produce is up to you, but so far not so much.

I really don't care what you pretend. Its out of my purview. I don't pretend that you are an authority either; maybe you have credibilty on some boards, clearly on others you do not. That's the way it is on the web. I was just asking some questions I actually wanted answered but you seem more focused on personal attacks. Take it down a notch; maybe don't take it personally and just answer the question??

A correction:
FWIW I didn't say cantilevers 'wear out'. I said they won't **perform**. I think something is perishing, but I don't know for sure. I know its not the stylus as under the microscope the examples I've seen have had plenty of life and I know its not the cartridge body, as replacing the stylus/cantilever assembly fixes the mistracking. That really only leaves the cantilever and since its been undamaged in the examples I've seen, that suggests something is perishing.

If you could do me a slight favor- don't nest your responses?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #71 – 2017-07-22 01:48:19

Quote from: greynol on 2017-07-21 23:33:10

Isn't that part of the ritual?

It was my first LP digitizing session with my dad's USB turntable. I'm just glad I didn't destroy the record with that "trick".

Oh yeah, and I'm already violating all sense of "preservation" by using a USB turntable, and also recording at 48/16.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #72 – 2017-07-22 03:07:17

Quote from: kode54 on 2017-07-22 01:48:19

It was my first LP digitizing session with my dad's USB turntable. I'm just glad I didn't destroy the record with that "trick".

Stylus covers tend to have a huge surface area when compared to a stylus and would only be riding on top of the surface anyway, so I wouldn't expect very much to be happening really.

Quote from: kode54 on 2017-07-22 01:48:19

Oh yeah, and I'm already violating all sense of "preservation" by using a USB turntable, and also recording at 48/16.

Could be worse. It could be one that's not only a cheap hollow plastic POS but only sampling at 22 kHz to boot! No kidding, those exist.

USB turntables are a convenience product, and as such manufacturers will be inclined to make them as cheaply as possible (see e.g. tea bags or fast food). The first ones also tended to be made by companies usually churning out novelty crap and the like rather than actual hi-fi makers. That's a solid basis for a bad reputation right there. Not to mention that you would have been able to pick up a decent hi-fi belt drive job from the '80s (maybe even a direct drive) plus a usable phonopre and acceptable USB soundcard for well under $100 US, too (and achieve much better results with that) - at least a few years ago.

We did decent vinyl rips 20 years ago in 16/44 on 16-bit ISA jobs, so who am I kidding, but if you don't feel like pushing your luck with the anti-alias filters on cheapie ADCs, I'd recommend using 96 kHz anyway (if available) and downsampling later if needed. Looking at e.g. some Realtek onboard chips, I've seen ADC responses that didn't drop appreciably until above fs/2, whereas good software resamplers are pretty much perfect - not to mention what seems to be high jitter in 44.1 kHz and multiples (manifesting itself in degraded SNR and apparent aliasing).

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #73 – 2017-07-22 06:02:48

Re "cantilever life": It's likely Atmasphere is referring to the elastic polymer ("rubber") block that supports the cantilever. In some cases, as it ages it can either turn to "goo" (the cantilever collapses and the cartridge scrapes the record), or harden (the compliance decreases, causing tracking problems).

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #74 – 2017-07-22 12:25:47

Quote from: Atmasphere on 2017-07-21 23:53:42

Quote from: Arny
I guess you don't have a clue that you tell a cartridge that is too old by means of simple measurements with test records.
Hmm. So without any idea on your part, you think I don't use test records?

OK, maybe you play Frisbee with test records. But if you had any relevant technical evidence it must be horrible because you're doing a fine job of keeping it secret.

Quote

?? if the cantilever is not the problem, and the stylus is not the problem, are you saying that a cartridge can get too old by some other means? What would that be? Sounds like you are suggesting that the coil is failing, something in the cartridge body?

There are at least as many ways for a cartridge to fail as there are separate things in it.

I've attached a diagram of a moving magnet cartridge from:

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttcartridge.html

to describe the components of a moving coil cartridge. It may not be complete for every moving magnet cartridge as moving magnet cartridges vary a bit. For example there is a bit of music wire in some moving magnet cartridges that may run from the armature to the body of the cartridge. It can help stabilize the cantilever's longitudinal position and possibly tune its response.

The common components of the cartridge are, and how they can fail:

Body - holds parts in alignment - can become cracked or worn (rare)

Tip - traces the groove - can become worn, broken or broken off and missing (common)

Cantilever - connects the tip to the suspension and the magnet - can become bent or broken (common)

Suspension - allows cantilever and related parts to move. Damps resonances - can loose elasticity, damping or strength. Can harden - can affect tracking and frequency response (common, and hidden from sight)

Magnet - part of electrical generator - can loose magnetism, effectively bricking the cartridge with no change in appearance (rare)

Coils - other part of electrical generator, generates electrical signal - can become shorted or open (common)

Music wire - if present, it may helps stabilize and tune the motion of the armature - can become detached or broken (rare)

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And I'm supposed to pretend that you are some kind of authority?

It would be bad for your pride. To be avoided at all costs. It could be good for your knowledge and wisdom.

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I really don't care what you pretend. Its out of my purview. I don't pretend that you are an authority either; maybe you have credibilty on some boards, clearly on others you do not. That's the way it is on the web. I was just asking some questions I actually wanted answered but you seem more focused on personal attacks.

You invite them by being dismissive and unresponsive. I've provided you with a lot of technical information, but apparently it is not sinking in because it does not agree with your personal agenda and biases.

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A correction:
FWIW I didn't say cantilevers 'wear out'. I said they won't **perform**.

No correction. The words are closely related. I say "worn out", you say "won't perform". Any reasonable judge would wonder where is the beef?

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I think something is perishing, but I don't know for sure.

A general lack of sure knowledge seems to be one of your problems. I ask you questions and to provide evidence, you don't or can't produce. You drop many hints about your lack of knowledge.

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I know its not the stylus as under the microscope the examples I've seen have had plenty of life and I know its not the cartridge body, as replacing the stylus/cantilever assembly fixes the mistracking. That really only leaves the cantilever and since its been undamaged in the examples I've seen, that suggests something is perishing.

I will repeat myself with a little more detail. The ultimate means of judging a cartridge is to objectively and subjectively test it and compare it to known good gear with as few biases as possible.

I've been flogging vinyl since 1959 or earlier, and as you should have noticed by now I am familiar with the gear, how it works, and many of the scientific and technical papers, both professional and consumer about it.

In my discussion of the components of a moving magnet cartridge which is similar to moving coil and moving iron cartridges, I discuss what is inside a cartridge and how it relates to performance. You don't seem to even know what half the parts are! Yet you want to pass judgement on my expertise. LOL!

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If you could do me a slight favor- don't nest your responses?

I guess you haven't noticed that the form and content of my answers are driven by your statements. Also, it is considered to be good form to quote the statements being responded to and then answer them. That's what I do. If you don't do that, the answers seem to come out of nowhere and are mysterious without reading previous posts, and trying to put all of the disconnected pieces back together.

That's how I roll - try to eliminate or reduce mysteries, best I can. Please try it, some time!