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Topic: >20kHz content found in vinyl? (Read 24033 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #75 –
Quote
That's how I roll


How you troll is more like it.

However, the diagram and the comment by Splice actually show the problem. I was hoping you would land on it without my help. But indeed the suspension of the cantilever is the problem. It only lasts a few years and then the cartridge does not perform. This is easily seen using a test record. I've treated a few with chemistry which helped a little, but once that suspension is gone the stylus is shot, even if the cartridge has never been used. So you can't store them- you have to use them.

One thing that has consistently bothered me on a lot of these threads is the constant comment about ticks and pops. I don't experience them all that much at home, but I try to take care of my LPs by storing them upright, without a lot of pressure on them (which leads to 'ring wear' on the cover). I have a Nitty Gritty, but I've not used it in years. I mostly just use a carbon fiber dust brush. The thing is, when a lacquer goes to press, the test press that comes back has to be played to detect any defects in the process. Quite often that means ticks and pops. A good press won't have any and neither will the pressing run. Last night I was playing an LP by Of Monsters and Men, on marbled pink vinyl, and not a single tick or pop on all four sides.

So where do the ticks and pops come from? One source is poor handling, another is a poorly set up pickup, which can damage the grooves. Some equalizers can exacerbate ticks and pops, raising a tick or pop event from inaudible to audible. This is caused by unstable equalizers. In a nutshell, if the equalizer is prone to RFI (which can include ultrasonic and RF energy caused by the resonance of the tank circuit caused by the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tone arm cable) then its likely that it will also exacerbate ticks and pops.

Now one area often overlooked and related is cartridge loading. The loading of a low output moving coil will have no effect on the output of the cartridge but it can have a huge effect on the tank circuit its driving! This is why the loading resistor can be important. If you can hear the effects of the loading resistor (and you have a LOMC cartridge), it means that your preamp is unstable.

Some interesting reading- note the comments by Jonathan Carr:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15077-Cartridge-Loading-A-Misnomer

OTOH high output moving magnet cartridges have much higher inductance, so the loading can affect them directly at audio frequencies. For this reason any high output cartridge should be loaded for best response and the generic input impedance of 47K isn't going to do the job. If left untreated, a MM cartridge will often have some sort of peak in the upper end of the audio passband, where ticks and pops often reside. Its worth it to look into this matter.

Jim Hagerman does a great job of describing cartridge loading issues in this article:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html




Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #76 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote
That's how I roll


However, the diagram and the comment by Splice actually show the problem. I was hoping you would land on it without my help.

You call me out for trolling when you just plain outright ignore what I post and then claim falsely that I never posted it?

I previously posted the following:

"Suspension - allows cantilever and related parts to move. Damps resonances - can loose elasticity, damping or strength. Can harden - can affect tracking and frequency response (common, and hidden from sight)"

What is unclear about:

" ...can loose elasticity, damping or strength. Can harden - can affect tracking and frequency response (common, and hidden from sight)"

To break it out further:

I said that the suspension can loose elasticity.

I said that the suspension can loose its ability to damp vibrations.

I said that the suspension can loose strength.

I said that the suspension can harden.

How much clearer do I have to be about the potential of the suspension to degrade?



Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #77 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
However, the diagram and the comment by Splice actually show the problem.
What diagram did Splice show, exactly?!?

Quote from: Atmasphere on
I was hoping you would land on it without my help.
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?

You know, Arny did allude to the answer before Splice ever contributed to the topic...
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
There are other parts of a cartridge that do wear out or even sometimes go bad while in storage, But our vinyl expert does not seem to know what they are.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #78 –
Quote
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?
Yes. I knew I was not mistaken. I've seen plenty of cartridges that lost their zeal.

I stopped reading his posts for the most part. This forum does not have a function to put someone on ignore. So you have to do it manually, but in scanning the pages one cannot help seeing some of his text. His habitual personal attacks (not just me by any stretch) make it not worth reading his posts. Proper decorum is 'attack the argument, not the poster' on forums where decorum is de rigueur.

The whole thing is a bit of a trick as he is also the one that spews the most misinformation about the LP. Its like herding cats.

But, after his trying to make me wrong on this point, apparently now there is a consensus that indeed a cartridge cannot be stored indefinitely and that it will not perform after a few years, mostly on account of the cantilever and its suspension. I had a Micro Benz that made it 10 years one time; not sure how long it would have lasted as one of my employees sheared off the stylus.

The point was before this diversion was if you are using an older cartridge as part of your evaluation of the LP, you are likely to come to a false conclusion. 

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #79 –
A false conclusion that what, >20kHz content can't be found on vinyl?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #80 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on

But, after his trying to make me wrong on this point,

I didn't make anybody wrong - most exercixe their rights to do-it-yourself on that regard.

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apparently now there is a consensus that indeed a cartridge cannot be stored indefinitely

Of course, that is a straw man. Nobody is silly enough to think that everything is forever.

Furthermore, that's another straw man, because I never said such a thing.

What I was trying to convey was the idea that the sonic faults of cartridges have measurable symptoms and that there is often  even some kind of correlation between the measurable fault, and the audible consequences.

I'd go so far as to say that if a cartridge has good trackability in standard trackability tests, good measured frequency response, and distortion that is in the expected range all other things considered, it can be reasonably expected to sound about as good as vinyl can sound.

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and that it will not perform after a few years, mostly on account of the cantilever and its suspension.

Cantilever useful age is about indefinite, barring mechanical damage. Suspension useful age depends on its design, materials, and working and storage environments and can be distressingly short if any of the above are sufficiently suboptimal.

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I had a Micro Benz that made it 10 years one time; not sure how long it would have lasted as one of my employees sheared off the stylus.

What reliable evidence do you have to support that claim?

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The point was before this diversion was if you are using an older cartridge as part of your evaluation of the LP, you are likely to come to a false conclusion.

Another straw man argument. I never said that  I  based my conclusions entirely on older cartridges.




Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #81 –
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What reliable evidence do you have to support that claim?

The employee that did it is still with us.

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Another straw man argument. I never said that  I  based my conclusions entirely on older cartridges.

I did not say you did, but you *did* say that you use older cartridges (emphasis added):
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(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

-Which is what started this nonsense; the stawman of course is I didn't say what you based your conclusions on. Can you admit that (a correct answer will be a simple yes or no)?

I was simply pointing out that the cantilever would be shot, and a page later, apparently there is consensus. Since we both knew that fact going in, why not answer the question I originally asked which was why would you use a legacy cartridge when you know full well that it wasn't performing to spec?? Was that obfuscation so you didn't have to answer the original question?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #82 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
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What reliable evidence do you have to support that claim?

The employee that did it is still with us.

Might mean something if the nature of the evidence was given.

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Another straw man argument. I never said that  I  based my conclusions entirely on older cartridges.

I did not say you did, but you *did* say that you use older cartridges (emphasis added):
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(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

[/quote]
You said that you used legacy and current cartridges, but someone my results are invalid and yours are valid.

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[
-Which is what started this nonsense; the stawman of course is I didn't say what you based your conclusions on. Can you admit that (a correct answer will be a simple yes or no)?

Yet another straw man.

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I was simply pointing out that the cantilever would be shot,

Which is a global generalization, and is false. If you had said that the cantilever might be shot, you at least have a chance of making a potentially true statement. But you picked the wrong word. 

I counter argued that if any of those things happened, they would show up in the measurements.

 But you, seemingly being Hell=bent on proving that my measurements incorrect,and  despite the fact that that others have obtained similar results  many times, wanted more than the situation allowed.

It appears that so much of this discussion likes in areas that you don't understand and might not be interested in, that its all the same to you.

My current theory is that you've misunderstood so much of this discussion, that it is a waste of time to try to convince you of the facts.



Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #83 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?
Yes. I knew I was not mistaken. I've seen plenty of cartridges that lost their zeal.

Please quantify "lost their zeal"

As stated this could be just a state of  mind thing, with no actual physical changes behind it.
 


Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #84 –
Quote from: splice on
Re "cantilever life": It's likely Atmasphere is referring to the elastic polymer ("rubber") block that supports the cantilever. In some cases, as it ages it can either turn to "goo" (the cantilever collapses and the cartridge scrapes the record), or harden (the compliance decreases, causing tracking problems).

That is exactly what I alluded to here, and then posted explicitly down the thread

Problem is, the suspension and the cantilever are so different that I can't imagine  out how anybody who has any kind of a workable understanding of how cartridges work would confuse them. Knowing that I may be dealing with unimaginable amounts of ignorance, I even posted a tutorial with a annotated picture containing that information, apparently to no avail.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #85 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Quote
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?
Yes. I knew I was not mistaken. I've seen plenty of cartridges that lost their zeal.

I stopped reading his posts for the most part. .

For your next major accomplishment, please stop replying to my posts without reading them. This is obviously what is happening. Your replies would make no sense at all, otherwise.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #86 –
Wow. Just - wow.

So- when asked if you could just answer the question, which answer might be something like 'I used the legacy cartridge for 'x' reason', you can't just answer, instead feel the need to obfuscate by spewing personal attacks. Sheesh.

How about this: instead of attaching meaning where none existed (because I really was curious why you thought that was important), how about just answer the question? Is that so hard?

I'm thinking right now that you think that answering would make you look bad, so you won't answer the question honestly.

Just a little pointer here, since it might help you run your life: The most powerful motivator in the world is the need to look good, failing that, the need to not look bad. On top of that is the knowledge that if you don't take things personally, then you live with less stress.  I don't take your attacks personally at all because its very clear its not my problem. Just look at the first 2 sentences of this paragraph, reflect on them, take a deep breath and calm down.

And then answer the question without obfuscation. If you are unable to do that we are then in agreement that you are not interested in the truth, as your motivation to look good is so overwhelming that you are willing to contradict yourself (like our president).

Y'know, I when I see that's what you're up to I pass over your attacks. So I miss actual content. If you can lay off the attacks, then I can read your entire post. I think you will find that I'm not as ignorant as you think (I have a degree too, just like you).

I did notice that you did not contest my comments about cartridge loading and preamp stability....

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #87 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
I did notice that you did not contest my comments about cartridge loading and preamp stability....

Why should I?  I've been tuning cartridge response by means of adjusting capacitive and resistive loading since the 1970s.   My recollection is that doing this was recommended by several cartridge manufacturers starting around then.

Obviously, if I use a cartridge, I test its response to various loads.

Off hand, I can tell you that some cartridges respond to this sort of tuning, and some don't.

For example, Shure V15 and M9x family cartridges respond vigorously,  while the Grado's that I have tested have competitive frequency response but don't care.

One of the advantages of building your own gear is that you can add features quickly and not wait around for manufacturers to add them in.  In the late 1970s I built a RIAA preamp with adjustable cartridge loading and used it until I sold my vinyl equipment and media collection in 1983-1984.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #88 –
Good- I've been doing something similar.

Now can you answer the question?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #89 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Good- I've been doing something similar.

Now can you answer the question?

I am unaware that you have any reasonble unanswered question. OTOH, you have made claims about the sonic performance of vinyl that would be reasonably answerable by means of an audio file uploaded to this web site.

This could be done in short order by anybody who had the technical competence of a bright 12-year-old, given that even if a cutting lathe were not available, a needle drop of several different LP recordings that have been specified and that I have found to be readily available, could be used to make a Needle Drop that would suffice.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #90 –
 ::)

Gawd! You need to read at a level higher than that of a 12-year old.

The question was and has been for some two pages now, why did you see fit to use a legacy cartridge? What possible relevance could that have in your testing?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #91 –
What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #92 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
::)

Gawd! You need to read at a level higher than that of a 12-year old.

The question was and has been for some two pages now, why did you see fit to use a legacy cartridge? What possible relevance could that have in your testing?

I used legacy cartridges for the very same reasons you admitted that you also used it:

I have some legacy gear (as well as new equipment).

Based on casual operational checks, it seemed to be working well.

I have other new gear to compare it to.

I had these additional reasons for using legacy gear.

I had technical means to confirm the cartridge's correct operation that you must lack since they seem to be a mystery to you:

I have a number of legacy and brand new test LPs. The legacy products are NOS.

I have the audio gear and test equipment for performing technical tests.

I have the technical knowledge about how to use my technical testing facilities effectively.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #93 –
Taking things as literally as you have in the past, never at any time have I admitted to using older cartridges, and further, to be clear, I don't use them now. At the shop we use a Grado Statement, at home a Transfiguration Orpheus. Both are low output cartridges of 0.25mV and 0.45mV respectively. My phono section has enough gain that I run them direct without SUTs.

There's a pretty profound difference between the performance of a stereo LP mastering system and a legacy playback system! On the surface, it seems you were unconcerned about obtaining optimal playback performance. Is this due to confirmation bias?

Why do you use the phrase 'legacy cartridge' rather than just saying what it was?
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I have the technical knowledge about how to use my technical testing facilities effectively.

Hm. OK- what tone arm? What phono preamp? What protractor, what geometry, what turntable, what did you use to stabilize the 'table? How did you damp vibration from the LP surface? was the arm damped? Do you load the cartridge (if a LOMC, what loading do you apply to the SUT and what is its bandwidth)? How does the preamp behave in the presence of RFI? Did you notice ticks and pops on the LP surface of your test LPs? If so why did you use it?

Was the arm straight tracking? If not, how did you compensate for the distortion generated and how were you able to tell how much was owed to the arm as opposed to the cartridge?

When I ask these and other questions, I often find flaws in the procedure. I also often find that some people don't even know what I'm talking about, like how to control resonance in the vinyl. So I'm wondering if you controlled these variables or not.

The problem here from my perspective is that I often hear about how terrible the LP format is, yet for some reason the sales is growing and I don't find the LP to sound particularly different other than noise floor from CDs. This suggests that many people (and based on yours and other's comments on this forum) that there is something fundamentally wrong with your LP playback experience. I can't tell why; at least one person got upset when it was suggested in a general way that setup could be to blame.

Again, setup is probably the biggest single reason for going digital; digital is pretty much plug and play unless you're setting up a music server or the like. Analog stuff requires a lot of fiddling, sort of like a 1960s British sports car, with the big difference being once you get it right, you don't have to do it again unless the maid shears off the stylus while dusting.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #94 –
Quote from: Atmasphere on
Taking things as literally as you have in the past, never at any time have I admitted to using older cartridges, and further

It is not worth the trouble to post the relevant quote from you because you never admit you are wrong, regardless of the evidence.

Quote
Quote
I have the technical knowledge about how to use my technical testing facilities effectively.


Hm. OK- what tone arm?
[/quote]
Shows what little you know. Every turntable I mentioned, I also either mentioned a tone arm, or it comes with one.

I fully expect you to give gratuitous unsupported insults to each and every one.

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What phono preamp?

Various tubed and SS Discrete transistor and chip amps.

However, I fully expect you to give gratuitous unsupported insults to each and every one.

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What protractor, what geometry,

Various, mostly standard engineering/drafting tools.

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what turntable,

I'm accumulating more. I told you what I had at one point. However, the one promise you've kept is to not read my posts. So, now you're acting silly.

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what did you use to stabilize the 'table?

Various objects  made of steel and masonry.  However, stability isn't the problem it usually is because there are no speakers involved. Of course, you'd never know this.

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How did you damp vibration from the LP surfact.

Various absorptive turntable mats.

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  was the arm damped?

News flash: Various arms are damped by various means.

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Do you load the cartridge

Asked and answered.

All cartridges on hand are MM or MI

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How does the preamp behave in the presence of RFI?

Good performance in that regard is determined as part of the setup and adjustment phase. I live in a very low RFI area.

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Did you notice ticks and pops on the LP surface of your test LPs?

I have over 10 test LPs. they vary.

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If so why did you use it?

Tics and pops are normal.  If you had normal hearing,, you'd know this.

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Was the arm straight tracking?

one is, most aren't.

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If not, how did you compensate for the distortion generated and how were you able to tell how much was owed to the arm as opposed to the cartridge?

Please explain the distortion created by straight line arms.

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When I ask these and other questions, I often find flaws in the procedure.

Pretty unlikely, as your questions reveal your level of actual understanding.  Lots of audiophile myth.

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I also often find that some people don't even know what I'm talking about, like how to control resonance in the vinyl. So I'm wondering if you controlled these variables or not.

Your proof of expertise will be the quality of your needle drop files.

If there aren't any needle drop files from you, all of your comments will be disregarded by anybody with a brain.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #95 –
Arie, Please repost without the abusive comments. They are uncalled for.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #96 –
Arny is absolutely right asking for something we can listen. You were asked more than once on this forum to bring something we all can listen. This is how HA worked until lately when i remember right.
You did not even answer if you are willing to try.
So far people should give several of your claims as much credit as if you were reporting about your latest alien abduction.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #97 –
Quote from: Wombat on
Arny is absolutely right asking for something we can listen. You were asked more than once on this forum to bring something we all can listen. This is how HA worked until lately when i remember right.
You did not even answer if you are willing to try.
So far people should give several of your claims as much credit as if you were reporting about your latest alien abduction.

I'm fine with that. I was unaware that he had asked for anything. Probably because when he becomes abusive, I stop reading.

I did answer in my second to last post above that I am willing to try. I asked Arne to what CD he was referring but no answer to that yet.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #98 –
How about these.

Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?

Reply #99 –
[quote author=Atmasphere link=msg=943235 ]I was unaware that he had asked for anything. Probably because when he becomes abusive, I stop reading.[/quote]
Apparently doesn't keep you from arguing with him though.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?
 
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