Skip to main content
Topic: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits (Read 4495 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #25
Since some people on this forum hold a certain reverence for ABX testing, I decided to play around with it. I know that doing this isn't going to change anyone's mind, and I will be just be accused for cheating if I did "pass" ABX testing anyway so it's literally a lose-lose situation. But still, I'm interested, the tools are easily available, and following some famous successes at ABX-ing high-resolution audio, I went and downloaded the ABX music set from AVS -- I didn't read a single post on that thread, just scrolled down to the download link and clicked it. I didn't cheat in any way.

Going into this, I knew it would be tough -- I tried A/B-ing a 24/96 vs 16/44.1 version of one track I had in my library and I simply could not tell the difference. A/B-ing the down-sampled DSD-256 file I discussed early in another thread was much more significant. Doing it blind with songs I have never heard before, I wouldn't be surprised if I couldn't hear anything at all. Now, this was a first run, just to kill an hour, so I didn't put the track through an extensive critical listening regime, I just stopped at a section I thought the difference was pronounced (symbol taps starting at 01:20) and took the test from there. Let me just say, the difference is SMALL. Very slight. It wasn't until half-way through the test that I thought I had finally nailed down what to listen for -- but at that point, audio memory was smearing things, so towards the end I was reduced to just going with my gut reaction on what I felt was that tad more open on the sound signature of the cymbals. I made these judgement on a 15 second snippet of the track, trying to determine them based solely on the symbol hits.

Quote
foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.9
2016-03-14 19:31:10

File A: Just_My_Imagination_A2.wav
SHA1: 2a913086b5e4c2fa052e643a2ad11c18ea598cff
File B: Just_My_Imagination_B2.wav
SHA1: 654dcecc9137b29f980d8d28fd63b5470b4695dd

Output:
ASIO : XMOS USB Audio 2.0 ST 2023
Crossfading: NO

19:31:10 : Test started.
19:33:28 : 00/01
19:36:19 : 00/02
19:38:05 : 00/03
19:39:33 : 00/04
19:44:35 : 00/05
19:45:22 : 01/06
19:47:09 : 02/07
19:49:28 : 03/08
19:52:20 : 04/09
19:54:22 : 05/10
19:54:22 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 5/10

Ironic choice of material for an unlikely failed test result. Having a little fun with us?

Beginning to smell like a troll.

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #26
^Well there are only three songs to choose from at that thread and that's the funny name one of them:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1598417-avs-aix-high-resolution-audio-test-take-2-a.html


@GUTB you seem to have accidentally truncated your ABX test results. Please use the scroll bar and re-paste it in its entirety, so we can see your full report. Thanks.

Quote
It wasn't until half-way through the test that I thought I had finally nailed down what to listen for
I guess it must be frustrating that subsequently to taking this test, after having "nailed down what to listen for" mid way through the test, you then lost it and couldn't hear the difference any longer, I guess, so all your later tests after it similarly show your failure to distinguish any audible difference with any strong statistical significance.

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #27
Beginning to smell like a troll.
Beginning?? ;)
Hey it's be nice and welcoming to tro...excuse me, new members week, get with the program Rick.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #28
However, those that listen to these amps can tell a tremendous difference that seem to have little to do with noise performance. Why? No one really knows
ಠ_ಠ

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #29
Since some people on this forum hold a certain reverence for ABX testing, I decided to play around with it.
People here value methods and tests that are reproducible, try to eliminate biases, produce actual evidence instead of opinions and anecdotes. Of course! Who wouldn't?!

I know that doing this isn't going to change anyone's mind, and I will be just be accused for cheating if I did "pass" ABX testing anyway so it's literally a lose-lose situation.
No, it really isn't.  If you actually heard a difference you should be able to pass an ABX test or a set of tests.

It wasn't until half-way through the test that I thought I had finally nailed down what to listen for -- but at that point, audio memory was smearing things, so towards the end I was reduced to just going with my gut reaction on what I felt was that tad more open on the sound signature of the cymbals.
Nobody is forcing you to do trials within 1-2 minutes. Give it more time if you need that and come back if you genuinely and honestly can say (to us and especially yourself) that you've heard a difference, with evidence to back it up. Then it would be nice if you could tell us what you heard and where in the track.

Total: 5/10
Even if you say that you heard a difference in the second half of the test (which again could be just bias on your side, same as your claims about big audible differences that you now start to recognize are "SMALL" at the most), you have to realize and accept that this is not better than flipping a coin.
Even 9/10 is expected to happen by just randomly mashing buttons (or flipping a coin). That's statistics, and ABX results are useful exactly because we can quantify these probabilities.
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #30

Rather, it's up to research efforts to account for differences between perception and measurements, with the understanding that measurements are very limited, and many unknown factors remain.


You couldn't be more wrong.  And you keep making this mistake over and over. So one fore time: The very first thing an audio  perception research effort will do, is determine whether the effect exists *apart from* the cognitive biases that all humans are subject to.  Once that hurdle has been met, *then* you can start analyzing what the cause might be.


.
Quote
For example, you might believe that the difference between a $200 3-lbs class D amp from a $10,000 160-lbs class A amp comes down to SNR, IMD and THD ratings, and a few other minor measurements. However, those that listen to these amps can tell a tremendous difference that seem to have little to do with noise performance. Why? No one really knows -- not even the designers of the high end amp, who end up designing products through trail and error with many different components until they find a combination that sounds good to them. The job of research efforts is to try and identify and measure the phenomena at play.

Is this your idea of 'research'?

Quote
Oh, and passing off amateur hour stunts at convention meetings (visual bias) as "research" shouldn't count.

No, it shouldn't, and doesn't.   Neither should sighted listening anecdotes .  The fact remains that DBTs are a standard requirement for valid audio research into audible difference.  Where's your data showing that audible amp difference are 'mysterious'?





Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #32
...the overwhelming majority of ignorant posts in that discussion, wow!  Even one pointing to Monty's video still got it painfully wrong.

Thanks, krab?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #33
I linked it here mainly for the first post, reporting Immersive's POV in some detail. 

For the rest, proceed at your own risk.    ;D   But there's definitely some HA-friendly posting in there.  It's not all wrong.


.

Re: Subjective Tests Indicate High-Resolution Audio Offers No Benefits

Reply #34
I still don't see the point with such a stale subject.  A couple of our newer members might find a better fit over there, however.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

 
SimplePortal 1.0.0 RC1 © 2008-2019