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Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #75
A non moderator implying a future ban because...s/he was asked to be a moderator in the past. Power, phew.

The trolls are laughing their heads off today.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #76
@xnor: I am free to think one way or another, but this thread is about interacting and having good manners.
For that, it is important that participants take responsibility on what they write, and one way to do so is evaluating one's words.
He has opted to ellude this evaluation so far, but this is not preventing us from identifying what we should consider acceptable and what not. And from these conclusions, improve our TOS.

@copperblue: If that can be interpreted from what I said, then I didn't use the correct words. If a future ban comes, it will not be because I suggested it, but for actions done by him in the future regarding some terms of service that might appear thanks to this topic.
I did not say that I have the same authority than a moderator using the premise that I could have been one. I said that I am an user that cares about the site, and I added that moderators thought that I could do so better being a moderator. As such, that is not an expression of power (moderators do exist), but of good behaviour.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #77
Quote
2. All members, at the staff's discretion, must converse in an acceptable fashion to be allowed the privilege of continued participation.
tos2
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #78
Ok... but TOS8 was reworded some time ago, so tos2 can be reworded too :P :D

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #79
For example, I continually see ad hominem attacks against other forum members, and I'm talking about veterans who should know better who attack not just newbs but also other veterans. They seem to enjoy being abusive, condescending, and as you just put it, "jerks". There is a very simple word for what they are: bullies. There's absolutely no reason an adult, professionally run forum like ours should put up with this behavior yet we have no explicit TOS which forbids such personal attacks, other than a vague, poorly defined rule that we must converse in an "acceptable" fashion, which can be interpreted differently depending on what one deems acceptable.
Firstly it can be fun teasing such people when they get something a bit wrong. Secondly, if you were to stop posts from such people then what is currently a pretty low posting rate may drop below what is viable for a functioning forum.

So in your opinion in the interest of "fun" we should not expressly forbid ad hominem attacks and bullying, as I suggested, say calling people "stupid idiots" for example. Plus you fear it would reduced the forum's total post count.

I come to this forum to discuss science with mature, civilized adults, when I can find them. You seem to have other reasons.

Ridiculing and contemptuously eviscerating a newb's naïve idea is perfectly fine. Go for it! Calling them a stupid idiot however is not, at least not in my book, but I'm not sure you see the distinction between the two.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #80
Ok... but TOS8 was reworded some time ago, so tos2 can be reworded too :P :D
Unless the mods have a different idea what an "acceptable fashion" of conversation is, I'm not sure there's even a need.
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #81
So in your opinion in the interest of "fun" we should not expressly forbid ad hominem attacks and bullying, as I suggested, say calling people "stupid idiots" for example. Plus you fear it would reduced the forum's total post count.

I come to this forum to discuss science with mature, civilized adults, when I can find them. You seem to have other reasons.

Ridiculing and contemptuously eviscerating a newb's naïve idea is perfectly fine. Go for it! Calling them a stupid idiot however is not, at least not in my book, but I'm not sure you see the distinction between the two.
I think you might need to reread the post you have quoted. It can be fun teasing the people doing the "bullying" when they don't have a firm grip on the stick they are using. Audiophiles are too soft a target to be much fun at all. Here is an example of teasing in a perfectly polite way. I started teasing because the chap I was chatting with became less than civil. I would start teasing you for the same reason if you would give me something to work with.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #82
You are pro teasing, at least when you personally deem it appropriate it would seem, and if I understand correctly you find it "fun" . I am against it and feel that forum members have the right to not be abused and harassed.

People should feel free to viciously attack arguments with all they've got, but not the arguers themselves, calling them, for example, "stupid idiots". The ease of teasing a person or the level of fun it creates for the teaser, or if the victim has themselves bullied others and/or is technically incompetent on an issue is all completely immaterial to the question of, "Is it acceptable to tease/bully?", so I don't see why you bring these things up:
Quote
It can be fun teasing the people doing the "bullying" when they don't have a firm grip on the stick they are using. Audiophiles are too soft a target to be much fun at all. . . . I started teasing because the chap I was chatting with became less than civil.
Two wrongs don't make a right. If a person has broken a forum rule then report them. Don't attack them back as your course of action. As an analogy, if a person deliberately throws a rock through your parked car window this does not grant you the right to throw a rock through their car's window. What one does, as a civilized adult, is report the offense to the authorities.

If one forum member personally attacks another this is grounds for disciplinary action, it is not a green light to then personally attack them with impunity, calling them a "stupid idiot". We have one set of forum rules and they are not to be broken "if one feels justified in doing so". This seems a simple concept, to me at least.

If we allow teasing then when a bully personally attacks another person (not their argument), calling them a "stupid idiot", they will simply fall back on "Oh, I was just having a little polite fun. Don't make a big thing about it." if they get called on it:  it is their standard modus operandi.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #83
Not true. Just keeping my opinion which I have good reasons to. ...

That's OK. You're entitiled to your opinions. What's not OK here is presenting your opinions as valid without also presenting sound technical evidence for their validity. It might help to think of TOS #8 as the "put up or shut up" rule.
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #84
You are pro teasing, at least when you personally deem it appropriate it would seem, and if I understand correctly you find it "fun" . I am against it and feel that forum members have the right to not be abused and harassed.
Certainly. When someone such as yourself makes a personal attack on a person, such as myself, incorrectly claiming they are making personal attacks on others it is funny because it is hypercritical. Teasing is an appropriate and reasonable response. Do you really think I should moan to the moderators about you? Wouldn't it be better to engage and draw out some more entertaining content?

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #85
As I've suggested in #1 the first suggestions I've made is that it would be more helpful to give direct, helpful answers or just ask for extra information. Teasing can be more annoying than just being called "stupid". It also lowers the SNR of the thread.  :(
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #86
Given how the thread on more misinformation goes, I start to think that this is already the modus operandi of the active users of this community. Else, I cannot understand why is it so difficult to close arguments rather than continue attacking the people involved in it.
This is a serious question: what purpose do the twenty (7 just from today) pages serve to hydrogenaudio?
It's a question for all the participants to make to themselves.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #87
People are free not to participate in that discussion. Why should that decision be made for them instead?

BTW, it's "that said" not "said that".

Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?


Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #89
 
Quote
Do you really think I should moan to the moderators about you?
About me having done what? Or is this a hypothetical question? Sorry, I think I got lost and I'm not getting your point. Please explain.

In general, if anyone breaks the rules they should be held accountable, so reporting them is the correct thing to do, yes.

Quote
Wouldn't it be better to engage and draw out some more entertaining content?
I'm here to discuss science and not seek entertainment from watching or participating in fighting. If one posts with the intent of inciting fights we actually have a rule against that: No flaming.
---

[Now addressing everyone:]
I am against making personal attacks,, for example, calling other forum members "stupid idiots". I want a rule which states that personal attacks, ad hominem attacks, such as this are unacceptable. Currently we only have a vague rule which states it is unacceptable to post, um, unacceptably, but obviously that's not clearly defined. Is calling another forum member a "stupid idiot", for example, allowed or not? This is not a difficult question.


Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #90
Where is this "stupid idiot" quote I keep reading?

We have a report function. Why not use it?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #91
^Because there is no (current) TOS rule which has been broken by calling another forum member that.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #92
Nonsense.

I certainly hope you don't expect TOS #2 to display every possible name that you can think of putting in a pair of quotations as if it were literally said or could be said* by someone.

(*) I have no idea which as it seems no one knows how to use punctuation properly anymore.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #93
Neither TOS #2, nor the extended clarification below it, explicitly says name calling is not permitted. TOS #2 says unacceptable speech is unacceptable but that doesn't help clarify things for me.

Since I now know you deem the current hypothetical example I just gave is unacceptable, I take it you consider it falls under the umbrella of "hateful" or "abusive" as the extended clarification written by CiTay mentions (recently update on 10 January, 2016, 02:08:08 AM by kode54). Good to know. Thank you.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #94
Remember that moderation is neither instantaneous nor complete.  Moderators are humans and humans are not perfect.

Also realize that leeway is usually granted in order not to stifle conversation.  Also, the forum usually does an excellent job at self-moderating (TOS 2 and 8 mostly; 5 and 6 not so much).  For the most part you guys are highly intelligent adults who don't need coddling.

There are lots of other things that could be clarified here, but like everything else, little in this discussion is new.  I will say that moderators have extremely limited banning abilities.  I will also say that the new forum software doesn't grant moderators anywhere near as much control as what was available previously.

As a parting shot, I'm left wondering how our latest placebophile is going to get along here.  Heaven forbid anyone so much as suggest he read our golden rule.  I'd do it but I'm deathly afraid of being labelled a bully (not really).
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #95
Quite often I am left with the choice between believing that somebody is a troll, or that s/he is stupid. Other options don't seem plausible. What should I choose then?
Both isn't a possibility?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #96
As a parting shot, I'm left wondering how our latest placebophile is going to get along here.
On a factual level? I guess like most people coming from audiophile forums.
As a member? Not that great I guess, but I do think that this thread already had an impact, albeit a much too small one for my taste.


Both isn't a possibility?
False dichotomy anyway.
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #97
I do think that this thread already had an impact, albeit a much too small one for my taste.
I'm sorry to say that I can't take this 20-20 Monday morning quarterback back seat driving very seriously.

Where's that image of the cat circling round and round?  Is it on a timer?

How will the compiler know when to dismiss me as a troll as a means to declare my arguments null and void?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #98
Monday evening here :D, very tired ... and I have no idea what you're saying.
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #99
I'm saying that you need to lead by example.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

 
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