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Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #25
When people register here and start spewing audiophile nonsense in their very first posts, I would say that's quite disrespectful of the rules and users on this site.
With all due respect, that sounds exactly like you've already decided and there's no need to listen, or at least listen without prejudice. Is it any wonder if people think that this type of approach is the result of closed or narrow minds?

As well, to me at least, it just seems that some of you have little faith in the obviousness your beliefs and as a result, your arguments often come across sounding reactionary and defensive.

Shouldn't science be able to afford to take the high road? Just sayin .... ;~)

(edits for diction and tone)
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #26
With all due respect, that sounds exactly like you've already decided and there's no need to listen, or at least listen without prejudice. Is it any wonder if people think that this type of approach is the result of closed or narrow minds?

That's because there is absolutely no reason to listen to audiophile bullshit that's been thoroughly debunked hundreds of times already.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #27
Still no need to be hostile or insulting. If it's been discussed already then simply point that member to that preferably civil and factual discussion, tell him to read that and come back if there are any remaining questions.

Also, we shouldn't assume that the person knows that the BS is BS or that it has been debunked hundreds of times. I'd rather assume the person does not know the science, does not know anything about cognitive biases, about controlled experiments, about digital audio, about epistemology ...

The only question then is whether people want to do something about that.
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #28
btw. Nobody should make suggestions how to be more tolerant and calm when he normaly is not seen posting much on exactly these topics started by suspicious new members.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #29
Still no need to be hostile or insulting. If it's been discussed already then simply point that member to that preferably civil and factual discussion, tell him to read that and come back if there are any remaining questions.

Also, we shouldn't assume that the person knows that the BS is BS or that it has been debunked hundreds of times. I'd rather assume the person does not know the science, does not know anything about cognitive biases, about controlled experiments, about digital audio, about epistemology ...

The only question then is whether people want to do something about that.

The attitude all depends on whether they come here and ask genuine questions, however misguided they may be. But when they just barge in with a complete audiophile spiel and seem to completely ignore every single sensible suggestion made to them, I can't really be too bothered about their precious feelings.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #30
@Wombat Why not? They absolutely should. They are just suggestions... No names are named and I hope it stays this way.
Those who post can hopefully take something away from this thread, those who just read can still give input.

And suspicious new members?  :-X
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #31
And suspicious new members?  :-X
I see no typo!?
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #32
... we shouldn't assume that the person knows that the BS is BS or that it has been debunked hundreds of times. I'd rather assume the person does not know the science, does not know anything about cognitive biases, about controlled experiments, about digital audio, about epistemology ...

The only question then is whether people want to do something about that.

I agree that some newcomers genuinely seem to have no clue about how the process of scientific inquiry works, and I feel sorry for them. If I knew of an entertaining guide to how it all works, I'd be okay with sending them in that direction.

Also, I'm probably in the minority in having no problems with more luxury or design-oriented gear per se.

As for the ones who choose to disregard scientific thought or claim that it can't be applied to sound reproduction: Flame away!

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #33
And suspicious new members?  :-X
I see no typo!?
I guess you mean new members who are actually the same (group of) people, but the admin cannot ban them since they can change their IP or use other tricks to hide their identity at will?

We can do nothing about this. What I usually do is wait until the thread is long enough to determine the nature of the OP.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #34
Our usual memberbase is mature enough to debunk most audiophile myths, but the problem is that we have similar beliefs and knowledge, and we know each others' strength and weaknesses from previous discussions. Therefore HA normally don't have a lot of new post unless we found something new or we need help from other members. This makes HA much quieter than some other forums.

In a quiet and mature forum like this, new members who post clueless things can easily get attacked. I can imagine HA is just like human body, when viruses attack us we come together and defend ourselves but if we are overreacted we can also hurt ourselves (our reputation for example).

Moderation is like taking medicine, it can temporarily suppress our pain but drug abuse is harmful as well. And most importantly, moderation represents HA's official view rather than individual members' opinions so it must be done very carefully. The best thing we can do is of course, settle the problems ourselves without the intervention of mods.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #35
With all due respect, that sounds exactly like you've already decided and there's no need to listen, or at least listen without prejudice. Is it any wonder if people think that this type of approach is the result of closed or narrow minds?

That's because there is absolutely no reason to listen to audiophile bullshit that's been thoroughly debunked hundreds of times already.

I must say I find some of audiophile bullshit very entertaining, and with no new voices, this
web-site may soon become very boring (software updates etc., members with a entrenched point of view)
Long live free speech, &  audiophile bullshit to entertain us all.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #36
btw. Nobody should make suggestions how to be more tolerant and calm when he normaly is not seen posting much on exactly these topics started by suspicious new members.
Sigh. When I have something useful to say, I'm obliged to, other than that, silence is golden. I  try not to go around egotistically assuming I'm right and others are wrong. If people are wrong, they need to come to that themselves. It rarely works to rub people noses in their own misunderstandings. Personally, I suspect that some people here just like to argue, put others down and use these forums to feel superior. To me, emotional posturing and verbiage are useless no matter which side of an argument it's on. If you can't make your argument politely, you've lost my respect. Indeed, with all due respect, I'll stick to facts and leave the personal attacks for those who can't get their minds out of the gutter of personality.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #37
There's nothing wrong with basic civility.


Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #38
Wait a second. This is a forum about audio, right? Wouldn't it be a place for audiophiles?

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #39
Wait a second. This is a forum about audio, right? Wouldn't it be a place for audiophiles?

Define 'audiophile'.  If you mean a devotee of The Absolute Sound, Stereophile, Computer Audiophile, HiFi News, etc. ,no, it might not be a place for them....if they abhor having their standard audio evaluation practices challenged (not to mention declared in violation of forum rules).

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #40
Still no need to be hostile or insulting. If it's been discussed already then simply point that member to that preferably civil and factual discussion, tell him to read that and come back if there are any remaining questions.

Also, we shouldn't assume that the person knows that the BS is BS or that it has been debunked hundreds of times. I'd rather assume the person does not know the science, does not know anything about cognitive biases, about controlled experiments, about digital audio, about epistemology ...

The only question then is whether people want to do something about that.


Isn't that what a FAQ/ sticky post/wiki  is supposed to be for?


Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #41
The single most effective introduction strategy is blunt and without guile or tact. That will ensure that the user does not get the wrong impression. Attempting to "soften" the blow may lead the new user to believe that there might be flex where there really is none.

I'm not saying to be a jerk, just that things are how they are because of how they were...
I wholeheartedly agree, however we are not locked into never changing anything about the forum, at all,  just because of how things originally started.

For example, I continually see ad hominem attacks against other forum members, and I'm talking about veterans who should know better who attack not just newbs but also other veterans. They seem to enjoy being abusive, condescending, and as you just put it, "jerks". There is a very simple word for what they are: bullies. There's absolutely no reason an adult, professionally run forum like ours should put up with this behavior yet we have no explicit TOS which forbids such personal attacks, other than a vague, poorly defined rule that we must converse in an "acceptable" fashion, which can be interpreted differently depending on what one deems acceptable.

All I'm asking for is that your signature line (under your post) should not just be a guideline, instead it should be a forum rule:
Quote
1. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
For example, telling a person "There is absolutely no valid reason to use the encoding you suggest for consumer distributed audio" is fine, but telling that same person they are a "stupid idiot" is not. Currently there is no rule to prevent this and it happens over and over again.

We can and should change, but the only way that this can occur is to have a rule against it so when people break the rule they can be held accountable. It seems exceedingly simple and straightforward to me that ad hominem attacks should not be tolerated and are grounds for, at the very least, getting the post removed.


Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #42
I fully support the approach that will treat new members and reasonable opinions gracefully.

Talking about discussants as "jerks, having disorders, audiophiliacs" etc. does not help to find and discuss good solutions.

I know that e.g. repeated craving for high sample rates could be unpleasant to experienced members, but there is always a way to tell it in such a way that the others will understand.

Moreover some of the issues that the "old" members have clear opinion or proof on are debated again because of new findings, advances in computer audio or changes in market situation. In know this is Hydrogen Audio, but it does not exist in vacuum or laboratory.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #43
I know that e.g. repeated craving for high sample rates could be unpleasant to experienced members, but there is always a way to tell it in such a way that the others will understand.

That's odd, because I seem to remember several members repeatedly telling you in quite straightforward and reasonably friendly terms that your assertions and beliefs were based only in hearsay and unsubstantiated speculation, and that all of your proposed reasons for preferring 24-bit audio over 16-bit for playback had been thoroughly debunked many times. But you persisted in trying to rationalize your completely irrational claims.

Sometimes, it is very hard to get people to understand, and that's when the tone tends to get a little sharp.


Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #45
The best threads are those with lots of technical discussion, which I enjoy a lot.
The worst threads can be recognized by their page count.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #46
I know that e.g. repeated craving for high sample rates could be unpleasant to experienced members, but there is always a way to tell it in such a way that the others will understand.

That's odd, because I seem to remember several members repeatedly telling you in quite straightforward and reasonably friendly terms that your assertions and beliefs were based only in hearsay and unsubstantiated speculation, and that all of your proposed reasons for preferring 24-bit audio over 16-bit for playback had been thoroughly debunked many times.


Believe me or not, I am still convinced that getting a record in 24 bit format has benefits for experienced end user, especially in the longer perspective. Even if it does not directly justify to charge higher price, just to offer a download of appropriate FLAC file to a customer. And this is not the case usually today, as when buying a CD you get just that (although that is completely OK for Hi-Fi playback).

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #47
Believe me or not, I am still convinced that getting a record in 24 bit format has benefits for experienced end user, especially in the longer perspective. Even if it does not directly justify to charge higher price, just to offer a download of appropriate FLAC file to a customer. And this is not the case usually today, as when buying a CD you get just that (although that is completely OK for Hi-Fi playback).

Apparently you seem to be impervious to learning, despite overwhelming evidence to refute your beliefs.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #48
Not true. Just keeping my opinion which I have good reasons to. That is onne of the problems discussed in this thread. Tolerance to others people approach. I know that science sometimes cannot be debated over (there are some facts to comply with), but this is not the case of 24 bit audio.

Re: Treating new members like...

Reply #49
Not true. Just keeping my opinion which I have good reasons to. That is onne of the problems discussed in this thread. Tolerance to others people approach. I know that science sometimes cannot be debated over (there are some facts to comply with), but this is not the case of 24 bit audio.

Yes, it actually is.

Your opinions are pointless in that discussion, as the use of 24bit audio as a distribution format is not a question of opinion, it is a question of basic facts of human hearing. But you insist on your erroneous opinions, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

That is not an open-minded approach to discussion, that is a closed-minded ingrained belief system on par with religious fundamentalism.

 
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