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Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #250
Where is your "relevant stuff”?

Unfortunately it will be incomprehensible to you/your ilk, but here it is.
For perhaps something you might comprehend.

I already said I’m agnostic on Winer’s claims.

Quote
This article is meant mainly as a rebuttal to those who believe that early reflections enhance sound quality in a typical home-sized listening room.
Some audiophiles believe that reflections in a listening room enhance spaciousness....played back in a small untreated room, the strong early reflections drown out the larger sounding reverb in the recording. This makes the music sound smaller and narrower, not larger and wider. One common myth is that rooms used mainly for playing stereo music should be treated differently, and less, than home theater rooms.
The value of absorbers at reflection points is standard for professional listeners, and should likewise be the goal for an audiophile or home theater enthusiast who wants a listening environment as excellent as a million dollar control room. Anything less and you won't experience the same clarity and quality as the mix engineers heard when creating the music or movie soundtrack.
Stereo creates a virtual center channel, so for someone sitting in the middle there's no real difference between having a center speaker or not.
As far as I know Dr. Toole is not a recording engineer, and he hasn't mixed music professionally if at all. I don't think he's a musician either, so that probably affect his opinions. Floyd's statements about early reflections defy my own personal experience, and the experience of almost every other audio engineer I know. Floyd claims that early reflections increase clarity, and cites research that proves "people" prefer the sound of music with early reflections present. But of those tested, how many were experienced listeners and how many were regular folk with no particular interest in audio and music? If the tests included "civilians" who don't listen for a living or even as a hobby, it's difficult to accept the results.


Please don’t label me “believer”

Uh huh, sure thing Bob. 

I agree that the switching time need not be super-fast. I would argue it depends on the level of processing, from sensory to perceptual to cognitive, of the sound.

Great, so now all we need is "some relevant stuff" from Bob, for: Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?
Got milk?
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Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #251
Well, why is it assumed necessary? Because it is necessary. Or rather, it is not assumed, it is known.

Go into a relatively empty, typical rectangular room with flat hard walls, floor, ceiling and you'll know why.
"I hear it when I see it."

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #252
Where is your "relevant stuff”?

Unfortunately it will be incomprehensible to you/your ilk, but here it is.
For perhaps something you might comprehend.


The first reference fails on the grounds of relevance to the topic at hand - its just a highly general truism.

The second fails on the grounds of just being the personal opinion of a potentially highly biased advocate.

Net effect: zero

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #253
most of the evidence that Toole relies on was not developed using DBTs 
One difference is my 30+ years of experience with actually trying to DBT speakers. 
In general the differences between speakers are easy enough to hear.

treatments have audible effects and if you manage them well they can improve SQ 
Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics
are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations

It has been conclusively proven that casual sighted listening evaluations are 100% susceptible to false positives 

Net effect: zero

I'd say more like -3 at least
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #254
[...]

Still waiting for an on-topic post from you.

Now I wonder if you even understand the purpose of the topic.  Read the original post for a refresher (if not for the first time).
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?


Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #256
Or rather, it is not assumed, it is known.

Go into a relatively empty, typical rectangular room with flat hard walls, floor, ceiling and you'll know why.

"I hear it when I see it."

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #257
Or rather, it is not assumed, it is known.

Go into a relatively empty, typical rectangular room with flat hard walls, floor, ceiling and you'll know why.



Not if you are stone deaf.  That may explain the surprising recent skeptical comments about room acoustics - the commentators are stone deaf and don't hear the natural differences in the acoustics of various rooms that the rest of us hear.

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #258
Not if you are stone deaf.  That may explain the surprising recent skeptical comments about room acoustics - the commentators are stone deaf and don't hear the natural differences in the acoustics of various rooms that the rest of us hear.

Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime?
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.

I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.


Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.


Uh oh.
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Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #259
Not if you are stone deaf.  That may explain the surprising recent skeptical comments about room acoustics - the commentators are stone deaf and don't hear the natural differences in the acoustics of various rooms that the rest of us hear.

Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime?
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.

I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.


Obviously AJ, you can't tell the difference between people with deficient ears, and those who can't hear at all. Put on the pointed cap, sit in the corner, listen carefully (which we know you don't do based on your fiascos with the videos I posted) and be quiet.

Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.


Again AJ the existence and benefits of listener training has been validated with DBTs, so this is another area where you are exposing your ignrorance.
Uh oh.


Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #260
I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.(7/2014)

Obviously AJ, you can't tell the difference between people with deficient ears, and those who can't hear at all.

So things have gone downhill since that July 2014 post, you are now completely stone deaf and reliant purely on your vision and studiophile believer beliefs about "treatments" efficacy?
Hmmm. I see. Well, I suppose that does make some sense here.

which we know you don't do based on your fiascos with the videos I posted

You referring to the "ABX" video with the two MT speakers stacked atop on another, with one upside down(!!) and "EQ'd" to sound similar with an omni mic, at some distance in the room? That fiasco? Well that deserves a whole 'nother thread since you are clearly masochistic. 

Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.


Again AJ the existence and benefits of listener training has been validated with DBTs, so this is another area where you are exposing your ignrorance.
Uh oh.

Your reading comprehension fails you again Kruger 

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Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #261
For completely deaf people like aj:
uploads

Granted, an extreme example. But then again aj is extremely deaf.
"I hear it when I see it."

 

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #262
Granted, an extreme example.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

uploads

Those aren't the droids we're looking for. Try here instead.

Of course there's no way you see this post, because I'm on your ignore list, which you're doing a fine studiophile type job with.
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Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #263
The heck?

It all depends on the room. While I might say more, there's really no more to say.

In my experience, nearly all room need substantial absorption, though, though, though,
though, though
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #264
It all depends on the room.

What would be the determinants? (outside of pathological, like empty bathroom, basement, etc and pure preference)
The premise is that, according to studiophiles, "treatments" are mandatory for "good" sound even in typical, furnished living rooms, just like "million dollar studios".

In my experience, nearly all room need substantial absorption, though, though, though, [/size]though, though

For holographic/auralized two-channel presentation, or...? Why?

cheers,

AJ
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Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #265
...and may the rubber finally see the road(?).
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #266
Granted, an extreme example.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

uploads

Those aren't the droids we're looking for. Try here instead.


The link to the AES e-library refers equally to every AES paper ever published, and is therefore utterly useless.

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #267
The link to the AES e-library refers equally to every AES paper ever published

Yep and completely unbeknownst to you, where one would find reliable, blind test evidence for "treatments" efficacy...if it exists.
Completely opposite of:
Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

..and is therefore utterly useless.
As noted here:
Quote
Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #268
The link to the AES e-library refers equally to every AES paper ever published

Yep and completely unbeknownst to you,


That's a lie.

Quote
where one would find reliable, blind test evidence for "treatments" efficacy...if it exists.
Completely opposite of:
Most people who are professionally engaged in audio "know" that the sonic changes wrought by nominal changes to room acoustics are readily audible and measurable and can be effectively and reliably managed by trained people based on sighted evaluations.

..and is therefore utterly useless.



Wrong on two counts that would of course mean nothing to someone such as your self AJ that has  shown themselves to be completely deaf or so hearing disabled that room acoustics changes are not heard by them.

(1) Room tuning is frequently performed by trained professionals with a track record for excellent productivity.

(2) The technical results of room tuning are generally on the order of a half dozen or more dB, and are therefore readily avalable.

I am surprised to see that there are people who can't grasp the idea that due to the large and readily audible nature of these changes, most of the audio world sees no need for DBTs involving room acoustics.  We're not comparing amps, DACs, or good perceptual coders running at high bitrates, Dorothy.


As noted here:
Quote
Obviously, a listening methodology with a high propensity for false positives such as sighted evaluations has very limited benefit to the process of listener training. No pain, no gain.



Context is everything, and the context of this statement which was amps, DACs, audio cables and certain other accessories, or good lossless or perceptual coders running at high bitrates has been stripped out for a deceitful purpose. 

When are you going to stop willfully lying, AJ?

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #269
someone such as your self AJ that has shown themselves to be completely deaf or so hearing disabled

Amir, are you just trying to be cruel to an sick old man whose ears are well past their prime?
When I served in the US Army (drafted) in the 1960s they had no clue about hearing protection. I qualified with 3 different firearms, worked on firing ranges, and worked routinely for about 30 months in a very noisy environment. While any damage that may have related to those experiences did not seem to hurt my hearing acuity that much when I was younger, these days things are far worse.
I now struggle to hear the effects of an 8 KHz brick wall filter at normal listening levels.

What's that saying about glass houses..? 

most of the audiophile/studiophile world sees no need for DBTs involving room acoustics and loudspeakers, due to the large and readily audible nature of these changes

Of course studiophile, of course.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #270
Granted, an extreme example.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

uploads

Those aren't the droids we're looking for. Try here instead.


The link to the AES e-library refers equally to every AES paper ever published, and is therefore utterly useless.



I expected no less ridiculous answer from aj. He now even rejects objective data with the justification that he has a link to AES. Roflmao. That's why I blocked this clown.

What I uploaded were recordings of a small room, relatively empty (guitar, mic on stand, small table, chair, laptop, cam, 3 people, a couple of solid frames pre-mounted for absorbers) first without any absorbers, then with a couple absorbers put into these frames plus two traps, iirc.
Beginner home studio rooms are not much better than that. Some small study/bedroom is of course going to need less treatment due to extra furniture, carpet, curtains ...

I call this example extreme because I would not put so many absorbers into such a room. It's not a desperate measure, just a demonstration of what can be achieved (actually, the room/walls/ceiling had space for at least twice as many absorbers mounted and traps) and how huge the differences can be.
But it's all the same to deaf people, or those in denial.
"I hear it when I see it."


Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #272
I didn't read all of this thread so I don't know what was already said. 

But I wanted to add (if it hadn't already been said)...

In reply to the OP...

Maybe bass traps are frequently assumed necessary because most room dimensions are pretty common shapes and sizes, and happen to be those shapes and sizes that are acoustically problematic. 
That's what they taught us in sound engineering school.  But of course they were teaching those of us who would be in studios, not in homes.  But the reason why the frequency might be persistent is because the acoustics can already be mathematically predicted somewhat just by room dimensions.  So an acoustician would already have a good guess at how bad the room acoustics would be just looking at a room schematic of the length, width, and height. 

Also the types of surfaces (stone, wood, or carpet) give an implication of other acoustical effects. 

Anyways that's my best guess response to the OP.
Be a false negative of yourself!


Bass Traps and Other Treatments: Why so frequently assumed necessary?

Reply #274
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-the...ml#post37191770

Hah, another funny thread, missed that one. "Prove my sighted believer evaluations wrong" - the studiophile/audiophile mantra. 
Clearly after 11 pages, evidence is, shall we say, a bit lacking. The dance floor remains open however....
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