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Crossover recommendations

Reply #25
The OP or indeed anyone interested in getting the best out a studio monitor + subwoofer(s) system would do well to read the following introductory guide.

Setting up Studio Monitors

It is from the Neumann site and is the best single source I have found so far. Some of it may seem very basic but at thirty six pages everyone will learn something they didn't know before.

Here is an example paragraph relevant here.

Quote
Plane Wave Bass Array™
A benefit of multiple subwoofer systems is the possibility to reduce the side wall interaction thereby improving consistency in the side-to-side low-frequency reproduction. This is important in studio applications where the sound engineer needs to move left and right along the mixing console, or where there are multiple listening positions along a large format mixing consol, for example in the movie industry. The subwoofers should be positioned along the front wall to generate a plane wave down the room. This is called a “Plane Wave Bass Array™” (PWBA™). The required number of subwoofers depends on the width of the room: wider rooms need more subwoofers. Two to four small subwoofers are recommended for small rooms and three to four large subwoofers for larger rooms. The subwoofers should be positioned along the front wall with a spacing of 70 cm (2.5’).



Crossover recommendations

Reply #26
To clarify, my original post consisted of a stereo pre-amp, a stereo power amp (200W per channel - 8 ohm) connected to (4) passive speakers using a crossover, but looking at all those active monitors and active subs out there, I just might go with active speakers. No external power amp required.
Ad hominem attacks are not Science.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #27
Quote
To clarify, my original post consisted of a stereo pre-amp, a stereo power amp (200W per channel - 8 ohm) connected to (4) passive speakers using a crossover
That's a different situation...

If you want a passive crossover, try Parts Express.

An active crossover will not directly drive a passive speaker!

FYI - The "standard" home theater setup uses passive main speakers and an active subwoofer.  i.e.  A home theater receiver usually has a built-in (active) crossover and 5 or 7 stereo/surround speaker outputs plus one or two line level subwoofer outputs for a powered sub.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #28
The OP or indeed anyone interested in getting the best out a studio monitor + subwoofer(s) system would do well to read the following introductory guide.

Setting up Studio Monitors

It is from the Neumann site and is the best single source I have found so far. Some of it may seem very basic but at thirty six pages everyone will learn something they didn't know before.

Here is an example paragraph relevant here.

Quote
Plane Wave Bass Array™
A benefit of multiple subwoofer systems is the possibility to reduce the side wall interaction thereby improving consistency in the side-to-side low-frequency reproduction. This is important in studio applications where the sound engineer needs to move left and right along the mixing console, or where there are multiple listening positions along a large format mixing consol, for example in the movie industry. The subwoofers should be positioned along the front wall to generate a plane wave down the room. This is called a “Plane Wave Bass Array™” (PWBA™). The required number of subwoofers depends on the width of the room: wider rooms need more subwoofers. Two to four small subwoofers are recommended for small rooms and three to four large subwoofers for larger rooms. The subwoofers should be positioned along the front wall with a spacing of 70 cm (2.5’).



This seems to disagree with the Audioholics article.  Aren't subwoofers that close together basically the same source?

Crossover recommendations

Reply #29
The OP or indeed anyone interested in getting the best out a studio monitor + subwoofer(s) system would do well to read the following introductory guide.

Setting up Studio Monitors

It is from the Neumann site and is the best single source I have found so far. Some of it may seem very basic but at thirty six pages everyone will learn something they didn't know before.

Here is an example paragraph relevant here.

Quote
Plane Wave Bass Array™
A benefit of multiple subwoofer systems is the possibility to reduce the side wall interaction thereby improving consistency in the side-to-side low-frequency reproduction. This is important in studio applications where the sound engineer needs to move left and right along the mixing console, or where there are multiple listening positions along a large format mixing consol, for example in the movie industry. The subwoofers should be positioned along the front wall to generate a plane wave down the room. This is called a “Plane Wave Bass Array™” (PWBA™). The required number of subwoofers depends on the width of the room: wider rooms need more subwoofers. Two to four small subwoofers are recommended for small rooms and three to four large subwoofers for larger rooms. The subwoofers should be positioned along the front wall with a spacing of 70 cm (2.5’).



This talks about a Harman study of subwoofer placement, but they did not try the "Plane Wave Bass Array™" approach:

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/...ctangular-rooms

Crossover recommendations

Reply #30
Quote
To clarify, my original post consisted of a stereo pre-amp, a stereo power amp (200W per channel - 8 ohm) connected to (4) passive speakers using a crossover
That's a different situation...

If you want a passive crossover, try Parts Express.

An active crossover will not directly drive a passive speaker!


No, obviously an active crossover can't drive a passive speaker directly. But in the OP's setup, the active crossover would go between the pre-amp and the poweramp.

Passive crossovers are compromises at best.

E: OK, I see your point, using an active crossover would actually require 4 full channels of amplification. Which is a better solution, whether it's done with separate power amps or active speakers.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #31
Not really. No.

The audiowhatsits article recommends starting with 2 subs on opposing walls. 4 subs, one in each corner, is slightly better and, finally, placing 2 subs each a quarter of the way across the front wall  (i.e. in the usual 'stereo' position is almost as good as that.

PWBA is essentially option 3 with any gap filled in by addition subs (if the room is wider than 3 m you need more than 2). You get a wider left/right sweet spot but not necessarily wider front/back. Although in my case I think I do. Note from my earlier post that although I have infinite placement, high pass. low pass, parametric EQ options on every driver in the system open to me I found the PWBA solution with 3/4 subs across a 4.25m wall was the best option.

Neumann know what they are doing. They are the famous old Klein and Hummel (K&H) brand taken over  and financed but left independent by Sennheisser. SWo they have the best of both worlds. Ample R&D finance and access to first rate manufacturing together with small company initiative and experience with German broadcasters and Berlin studios and concert halls. Not to knock audioholics but come on, they are not in the same league?


Crossover recommendations

Reply #32
but looking at all those active monitors and active subs out there, I just might go with active speakers. No external power amp required.

Or crossover, depending on choice. The monitor has onboard high pass (Low Cutoff) :

Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #33
Not to knock audioholics but come on

The article is largely nonsense. Based on yet another faulty reading of a Harman paper like this one.
Pay close attention to page 2.
Quote
Even with the above assumptions, there are many variables
left to consider, making a complete analytical treatment
difficult. This study is somewhat empirical in nature..

Real room "mode calculation"? Spare me.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #34
Not to knock audioholics but come on

The article is largely nonsense. Based on yet another faulty reading of a Harman paper like this one.
Pay close attention to page 2.
Quote
Even with the above assumptions, there are many variables
left to consider, making a complete analytical treatment
difficult. This study is somewhat empirical in nature..

Real room "mode calculation"? Spare me.


Todd Welti is the author of the AES paper.  I'm still waiting for your evidence.

Edit: #8748, not the one you reference.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #35
Not really. No.

The audiowhatsits article recommends starting with 2 subs on opposing walls. 4 subs, one in each corner, is slightly better and, finally, placing 2 subs each a quarter of the way across the front wall  (i.e. in the usual 'stereo' position is almost as good as that.

PWBA is essentially option 3 with any gap filled in by addition subs (if the room is wider than 3 m you need more than 2). You get a wider left/right sweet spot but not necessarily wider front/back. Although in my case I think I do. Note from my earlier post that although I have infinite placement, high pass. low pass, parametric EQ options on every driver in the system open to me I found the PWBA solution with 3/4 subs across a 4.25m wall was the best option.

Neumann know what they are doing. They are the famous old Klein and Hummel (K&H) brand taken over  and financed but left independent by Sennheisser. SWo they have the best of both worlds. Ample R&D finance and access to first rate manufacturing together with small company initiative and experience with German broadcasters and Berlin studios and concert halls. Not to knock audioholics but come on, they are not in the same league?


Nowhere does either Audioholics article or AES paper recommend this third option you just made up.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #36
Do you bother reading your own references let alone anyone else's?

Option 3 is the same as figure 1.C 1/4 wall placement in the paper you quoted.


Crossover recommendations

Reply #37
Do you bother reading your own references let alone anyone else's?

Option 3 is the same as figure 1.C 1/4 wall placement in the paper you quoted.


Yes, figure 1.C shows four subs.  The description does mention results "almost as good" with two, although they work better on the back wall than the front.

Edit: This may be reversed if seating is in the front 1/3, rather than the rear.  The article still clearly states, "If you are running two subs, the ideal locations for them in a rectangular room are on opposing vertical or horizontal midwalls."

Crossover recommendations

Reply #38
I'm not even sure you read your own article even now.

Quote
Figure 1c. 1/4 W Placement
Although this isn't spelled out in the CEA recommendation, Dr. Toole references it in his book as a good solution for two subwoofers but suggests additional subwoofers may be needed.  In my experience I've had excellent results placing two subs against the front wall at locations of 1/4 the room width.  I've had even better results placing two additional subs in a similar manner against the back wall.  This configuration can achieve nearly as good frequency response performance as the 4 Corner placement with nearly as much bass gain as well.


emphasis mine.

So in a room up to 3 m wide 2 subs makes a PWBA, 4m needs 3 and anything over needs 4. You get a broader sweet spot but need to space seating carefully in the front back axis.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #39
I'm not even sure you read your own article even now.

Quote
Figure 1c. 1/4 W Placement
Although this isn't spelled out in the CEA recommendation, Dr. Toole references it in his book as a good solution for two subwoofers but suggests additional subwoofers may be needed.  In my experience I've had excellent results placing two subs against the front wall at locations of 1/4 the room width.  I've had even better results placing two additional subs in a similar manner against the back wall.  This configuration can achieve nearly as good frequency response performance as the 4 Corner placement with nearly as much bass gain as well.


emphasis mine.

So in a room up to 3 m wide 2 subs makes a PWBA, 4m needs 3 and anything over needs 4. You get a broader sweet spot but need to space seating carefully in the front back axis.


Okay.  Is this shown to work better than the recommended midwall or four-corner placement?  Just to clarify, no one is recommending running subs in "stereo," correct?

Crossover recommendations

Reply #40
Just to clarify, no one is recommending running subs in "stereo," correct?

JJ, Griesinger and page 27 of linked Neumann studio guide, remove any doubt of either your reading capability, assuming you are even reading anything linked, including your own.
Quote
If the subwoofers are all located in one place or only one subwoofer is used, previously spatial distributed bass is reproduced from a single source location –
classical music engineers particularly do not favor this

The OP is very clear this is a "Hi fi" music system.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #41
Just to clarify, no one is recommending running subs in "stereo," correct?

JJ, Griesinger and page 27 of linked Neumann studio guide, remove any doubt of either your reading capability, assuming you are even reading anything linked, including your own.
Quote
If the subwoofers are all located in one place or only one subwoofer is used, previously spatial distributed bass is reproduced from a single source location –
classical music engineers particularly do not favor this

The OP is very clear this is a "Hi fi" music system.


I did not read the 36-page marketing pamphlet. Does it cite any studies?  I assume these classical music producers can cite evidence to support their prejudice, right?  So far, I've seen nothing from you but straw men and ad hominems.

Crossover recommendations

Reply #42
Just to clarify, no one is recommending running subs in "stereo," correct?

JJ, Griesinger and page 27 of linked Neumann studio guide, remove any doubt of either your reading capability, assuming you are even reading anything linked, including your own.
Quote
If the subwoofers are all located in one place or only one subwoofer is used, previously spatial distributed bass is reproduced from a single source location –
classical music engineers particularly do not favor this

The OP is very clear this is a "Hi fi" music system.


In fact, the Neumann Klein & Hummel guide shows all subs summed into the LFE channel in their wiring diagram, earlier baseless assertions notwithstanding.  Are you sure you read it?

 

Crossover recommendations

Reply #43


Eh?  A subwoofer properly configured with an 80hz or lower crossover is not possible to localize.

I see reading comprehension isn't your forte.


I see using words in a meaningful way and citing reliable sources isn't yours.

JJ is as reliable as they come for relying on and referencing on this stuff. http://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_pro.../papers/p47.pdf. With plenty references for those with reading comprehension.
As is Griesinger. Unfortunately, a certain level of intellect/reading comprehension is required.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #44
Todd Welti is the author of the AES paper.  I'm still waiting for your evidence.

Edit: #8748, not the one you reference.

The Welti paper is available on the AES site, so clearly you haven't read it, despite referencing. Not that that would have mattered, since you failed to comprehend despite the clear JJ laymans text I provided, still harping about localization. 
OTOH, I can access the Welti paper and it's just spatial smoothing of mono bass with source averaging. Yawn.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #45
Todd Welti is the author of the AES paper.  I'm still waiting for your evidence.

Edit: #8748, not the one you reference.

The Welti paper is available on the AES site, so clearly you haven't read it, despite referencing. Not that that would have mattered, since you failed to comprehend despite the clear JJ laymans text I provided, still harping about localization. 
OTOH, I can access the Welti paper and it's just spatial smoothing of mono bass with source averaging. Yawn.


Aaaand...  You have still failed to cite a source demonstrating human sensitivity to inter-aural phase differences with 14 - 28ft wavelengths.

Edit: Oh, no, I missed it.  You did link to a study showing sensitivity to phase shift with test signals.  Anything with real source material?  Also, it appears they used headphones and did not account for harmonic distortion. This could be a plausible explanation for the anomalous 20hz result.  At 20hz, it's unlikely they heard anything BUT distortion.


Crossover recommendations

Reply #47
Edit: Oh, no, I missed it.  You did link to a study showing sensitivity to phase

Missing things is your forte.
Now back to the OP. Budget for your stereo monitors and subs?


Indeed, and ad hominems remain yours.  At least I've shown an ability to correct my mistakes.  Reposted for anyone else who missed it:

http://www.acoustics.asn.au/conference_pro.../papers/p47.pdf

"The study was conducted in an anechoic room, and the main purpose of using this room was to provide a low background noise environment to avoid masking (or distraction from) the stimuli. Raitio et al. (2007) show that low frequency laterali- sation can be particularly sensitive to interference from back- ground noise."

Now, let's try it with a full orchestra!  And the conclusion:

"The commonly held view, that localisation acuity is poor in the very low frequency range, is confirmed (at least for IPD as a cue), but this study confirms that at least some lateralisa- tion is possible in this frequency range. The findings from this study support the conclusion by Braasch et al. that inte- raural phase difference is the cue or mechanism for lateralisa- tion of low frequencies. It also reinforces conclusions of pre- vious subwoofer-based experiments of potential benefits in spatial audio rendering from multiple subwoofers, or more specifically, a pair of subwoofers on the left and right of the listener."

So, ignoring for the sake of argument the poor sub-bass performance of the HD600's and higher human sensitivity to distortion with test tones, this study appears to show a weak effect in a highly artificial environment.  Don't I have egg all over my face?

Crossover recommendations

Reply #48
The findings from this study support the conclusion by Braasch et al. that interaural phase difference is the cue or mechanism for lateralisation of low frequencies. It also reinforces conclusions of previous subwoofer-based experiments of potential benefits in spatial audio rendering from multiple subwoofers, or more specifically, a pair of subwoofers on the left and right of the listener."

Don't I have egg all over my face?

Yes, you do. Strange question.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Crossover recommendations

Reply #49
The findings from this study support the conclusion by Braasch et al. that interaural phase difference is the cue or mechanism for lateralisation of low frequencies. It also reinforces conclusions of previous subwoofer-based experiments of potential benefits in spatial audio rendering from multiple subwoofers, or more specifically, a pair of subwoofers on the left and right of the listener."

Don't I have egg all over my face?

Yes, you do. Strange question.


That's got to be a TOS violation.

 
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