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Topic: Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts (Read 17515 times) previous topic - next topic
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Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #25 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Why don't you tell us what we have there with what is shown.

An expensive bad loudspeaker.

As for the technical reasons, it has nothing to do with impedance so I'd still like to know why you asked about it.
"I hear it when I see it."

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #26 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
I guess he never got back to you.

Private conversations I have via PM remain private.

...but scrim? Seriously?

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #28 –
Yes, thank you.  Now at the risk of derailing*, is it a significant contributor to frequency response to the point that it will change the order of user preference?  A more insidious impact on audibility than just FR?  ...or???

(*) The topic can easily be split if this generates worthwhile technical discussion.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #29 –
Quote from: greynol on
Yes, thank you.  Now at the risk of derailing*, is it a significant contributor to frequency response to the point that it will change the order of user preference?  A more insidious impact on audibility than just FR?  ...or???

(*) The topic can easily be split if this generates worthwhile technical discussion.


Scrim is generally a lot more acoustically transparent then speaker grille cloth.

Both speakers have to push sound through it so it is a consistent influence.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #30 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Both speakers have to push sound through it so it is a consistent influence.

That won't negate arguments that it may behave more synergistically* with one speaker than another.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #31 –
Quote from: greynol on
Yes, thank you.  Now at the risk of derailing*, is it a significant contributor to frequency response to the point that it will change the order of user preference?  A more insidious impact on audibility than just FR?  ...or???  (*) The topic can easily be split if this generates worthwhile technical discussion.


Supposedly acoustically transparent [AT] cloth, sold at the professional level, almost always causes some HF loss. [I never claimed it is always audible] If it is uniform from trial to trial when comparing different products it may very well be innocuous to most listeners in testing, however if a speaker is bordering on being "dull and lacking in details in the highs", I guess it could theoretically bump it down to the category of being "just too dull".

Conversely if a speaker is "too harsh and zingy" it might mellow it to become "acceptable but just a tad bright".

Random Example:



Another way to do blind speaker testing is with blindfolds, or turn off the lights at night and test in total darkness. Some suggest the solution is to EQ away the HF loss of the AT scrim.

I'm unaware of Harman publishing any data as to their scrim's transfer function. How it alters the total sound power at the listening position may also differ from the typical measurements, such as the image above, which are usually done at close range perpendicularly to the cloth only.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #32 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Both speakers have to push sound through it so it is a consistent influence.

That won't negate arguments that it may behave more synergistically* with one speaker than another.


Does that not pale in comparison with all of the arguments against doing just about anything else in audio, including DBT tests? ;-)

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #33 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: ajinfla on
Why don't you tell us what we have there with what is shown.

An expensive bad loudspeaker.

As for the technical reasons, it has nothing to do with impedance so I'd still like to know why you asked about it.

Are those "resonances" as Toole states, or not?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #34 –
Quote from: greynol on
Private conversations I have via PM remain private.

...but scrim? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Just like I asked 5yrs ago, I'd like to see LP measurements with and without scrim, for both uni and bi-directional systems. Why wouldn't you?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #35 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Both speakers have to push sound through it so it is a consistent influence.

Really? Even for monopole vs dipole systems as we have here? Would you mind sharing this data you have for that claim Arny?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #36 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Yes, seriously. Just like I asked 5yrs ago, I'd like to see LP measurements with and without scrim, for both uni and bi-directional systems.

You must know that you're deep into # of angels dancing on the head of a pin territory*; but if that's something about which you wish to express concern, then feel free to be my guest.

Quote
Why wouldn't you?

I would if I felt that it mattered.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #37 –
"I hear it when I see it."

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #38 –
Not something I would put in my house, thanks.

So, what's the response with the grills off?  It might just change my mind.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #39 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: greynol on
Private conversations I have via PM remain private.

...but scrim? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. Just like I asked 5yrs ago, I'd like to see LP measurements with and without scrim, for both uni and bi-directional systems. Why wouldn't you?


Not worth the time, given that I already been there and done that.

Not worth the time, because the effects are so small and easy to make symmetric in the experiment.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #40 –
Quote from: greynol on
Not something I would put in my house, thanks.


BTW it is the response curve of an ideal loudspeaker 1/4 of a wavelength @ 1 KHz from an ideal wall in an ideal room (anechoic chamber, or equivalent).

Given that you no doubt have non-ideal walls and speakers, whatever you do have is tons messier.


Quote
So, what's the response with the grills off?  It might just change my mind.


Depends on the grilles, but typically very minor in comparison.

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #41 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Both speakers have to push sound through it so it is a consistent influence.

Really? Even for monopole vs dipole systems as we have here? Would you mind sharing this data you have for that claim Arny?


Yes, for monopole vs dipole systems as we have here.

Quote
Would you mind sharing this data you have for that claim Arny


I already just satisfied one of your bullying requests for data AJ, with no reward, only more abuse.

Make it worth my while to put up with more abuse!

Sometime I feel like I'm talking to Amir. ;-)

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #42 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: ajinfla on
Why don't you tell us what we have there with what is shown.

An expensive bad loudspeaker.

As for the technical reasons, it has nothing to do with impedance so I'd still like to know why you asked about it.



I might suggest that the bumps in the impedance curve between 1 Kz and 15 KHz may have a common cause with similar bumps in the response curve.



Disclamer: I've never been a fan of ML 'stats.

When given the choice, I chose these:



I can't imagine why! ;-)

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #43 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Both speakers have to push sound through it so it is a consistent influence.

That won't negate arguments that it may behave more synergistically* with one speaker than another.



There will always be arguments from those people.

There is this dirty rumor that there is a conspiracy to not sell measurement-type microphones and etc. to them so that they can never test their own weird hypotheses, but instead are forever condemned to publicly hector those of us who have such tools but may have better things to do than jump down other people's rabbit holes for them. ;-)

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #44 –
Quote from: greynol on
You must know that you're deep into # of angels dancing on the head of a pin territory*; but if that's something about which you wish to express concern, then feel free to be my guest.

I have. Numerous times on different fora. Especially after reading Toole et al research over the last 20+ years and the effect of off axis/sound power at the LP and the effect on timbre, etc.
Call me curious if you wish, but I'd like to see their data since they've made a very limited set rather public.

Quote from: greynol on
I would if I felt that it mattered.

Well, I'd rather see if it matters, in the form of data...which purportedly exists already.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #45 –
Quote from: mzil on
I'm unaware of Harman publishing any data as to their scrim's transfer function. How it alters the total sound power at the listening position may also differ from the typical measurements, such as the image above, which are usually done at close range perpendicularly to the cloth only.

I've asked, repeatedly.
But according to the cognoscenti.....all frivolous you see.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #47 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Not worth the time, given that I already been there and done that.

Not worth the time, because the effects are so small and easy to make symmetric in the experiment.

Yes o might one. If the Lord thy Arnold sayeth, it must be so... 

Ok, so for the big bully, you have no such data Amir...excuse me, Arnold. Just checking.
Forgive my scientific curiosity and even daring to ask!

Loudspeaker manufacturer

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #48 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
"Don't know" would have sufficed.

You don't know why you brought up impedance yourself?
What don't I know? Diffraction in dipoles? Interference? Comb filtering? Are you really so arrogant to tell others what they don't know? Wow.

Your are just a troll. Go away. Play your derailing games in some other thread, or better yet on some other forum.
"I hear it when I see it."

Floyd Toole - Sound reproduction – art and science/opinions and facts

Reply #49 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I might suggest that the bumps in the impedance curve between 1 Kz and 15 KHz may have a common cause with similar bumps in the response curve.


Wait a second, what impedance curve??
Loudspeaker manufacturer