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15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Sections  2, 6, 17 of  15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto + cues  for AES Conference Paper 9174:  Audibility Of Typical Digital Filters

"
We analysed the percent-correct scores for
each of sections 1-17 across all conditions, and found
that some sections yielded a higher ratio of correct
results than others. For example, sections 2, 6 and
17 gave correct-to-total ratios of 0.714, 0.710 and
0.769 respectively
"

[attachment=8064:15_Haydn...ection_2.flac]
[attachment=8065:15_Haydn...ection_6.flac]
[attachment=8067:15_Haydn...ction_17.flac]

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #1
Left channel of third sample:




Spectral images a-plenty, possibly from low quality resampling.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #2
Doesn't this look like dsd noise and maybe a hefty imaging problem resulting from a faulty dsd -> PCM conversation?
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #3
D'oh!

So much for getting access to all the bits.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #4
Arny, what is the source of these samples ? Is it sure that they are identical to the original versions on the 2l.no website ?

ps: I've just checked with the original I've had for months, and your version is about 2 dB softer !

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #5
Doesn't this look like dsd noise and maybe a hefty imaging problem resulting from a faulty dsd -> PCM conversation?

... or a faulty PCM > DSD conversion.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #6
Arny, what is the source of these samples ? Is it sure that they are identical to the original versions on the 2l.no website ?

ps: I've just checked with the original I've had for months, and your version is about 2 dB softer !

I compared the last sample (cue 17) with a high resolution (96k stereo) version I downloaded several years ago, and yes the cue 17 version is about 1.7dB softer.

[On another matter, I seem to be getting errors on some flac downloads. The error manifested itself in the decoded waveform for 15_Haydn__String_Quartet_In_D__Op__76__No__5_-_Finale_-_Presto___cues_section_17.flac by way of silence for a short segment of about 21mS commencing 1.834mS into the file. Probably an error at my end. I am querying this at post #211 of the FLAC 1.3.0 has been released thread.]

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #7
Doesn't this look like dsd noise and maybe a hefty imaging problem resulting from a faulty dsd -> PCM conversation?
... or a faulty PCM > DSD conversion.
The L2 record company uses Weiss Saracon for SRC, which is a very well known, highly regarded and reliable professional tool. This does not guarantee that something has gone wrong though. I've noticed before that L2 uses a default setting in which the output is 0.2 dB lower in order to prevent overloads. This does make sense, but it should be noted when carefully comparing the original DXD against the SRC'd versions.
Quote
Welcome to the complimentary download area brought to you by 2L and Weiss Engineering.
We invite you to download high resolution files for free and play them on your Weiss equipment. The music has been recorded in DXD (352.8 kHz sampling rate) and subsequently converted to 192kHz / 24Bit using the Weiss Saracon Sampling Rate Converter software.
[/size]

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #8
Arny, what is the source of these samples ? Is it sure that they are identical to the original versions on the 2l.no website ?

ps: I've just checked with the original I've had for months, and your version is about 2 dB softer !

I compared the last sample (cue 17) with a high resolution (96k stereo) version I downloaded several years ago, and yes the cue 17 version is about 1.7dB softer.


From the paper:

"
3Please note that 2L also o ffers a free sampler version of this which is not identical to the one we used; the le \2L53SACD 04 stereo 192kHz.
ac" available at the URL http://www.2l.no/hires/ has the level raised approximately 2 dB so as to peak at -1 dB.
"
This one is the pay-for version.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #9
Rather than add a new thread, I'll use this one for other uploads related to the discussion of the AES conference paper: "The audibility of typical digital audio fl lters in
a high- delity playback system"


[attachment=8070:Meridian...eaker_FR.png]  - FR & implulse response of Meridian DSP7200SE  active speaker system

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #10
We invite you to download high resolution files for free and play them on your Weiss equipment. The music has been recorded in DXD (352.8 kHz sampling rate) and subsequently converted to 192kHz / 24Bit using the Weiss Saracon Sampling Rate Converter software.

DXD rate recorded is not very common imho. If some ADC gives out this rate it most lkely converts it internally from its multibit bitstream. Also possible they record in dsd, open it with a program that converts it to DXD like Pyramix but see it recorded in DXD.
Still strange to see that pattern.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #11
DXD rate recorded is not very common imho. If some ADC gives out this rate it most lkely converts it internally from its multibit bitstream.

That implies that DXD is singlebit, but it is in fact multibit as well.

DXD was created because DSD is pretty much impossible to work with, it is 24-bit @ 352.8kHz. DSD runs at an even higher rate, 2.8MHz, but apparently there are people working with DSD128, DSD256 and DSD512, the latter runs 1-bit at a whopping 22.6MHz.

Because, obviously, bigger numbers are better.
Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #12
Spectral images a-plenty, possibly from low quality resampling.
I've been looking at this. I'm not sure this is the explanation.

For one thing, the few other samples from 2L I tried...
http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
...don't have this problem. The Britten is sufficiently similar that you'd expect it to exhibit the same problem, but it doesn't at all. I'm making the assumption that all the files went through the same resampling, and nothing went uniquely wrong with the Haydn. I'm not sure those assumptions are valid.

For another thing, the DXD 24/352.8 version has just the same "spectral images". They claim the DXD version is the master, which the other versions were created from. Well, it's there on the "master", if that's what it is.

Most convincingly, look carefully at the spectrum, and listen carefully to the recording (replaying the 192kHz version at 48kHz and then 96kHz, so you can hear those "images"). It sounds rather metallic (just like lousy resampling, actually!) but it rings along after the loud sections. It doesn't start immediately when there's a loud note (there's a short delay), and it rings on afterwards (it dies out with the reverb). I think it's something in the recording venue rattling along with the music. I bet it's some little metallic thing that's inaudible in real life, that becomes audible when you slow the playback down (just like bats). I suspect it's just about audible at normal playback speeds to some people, but without a "clean" version to compare with, it's hard to be sure.


Does anyone know full details about DXD recording? I've read the 2l and lindberg web pages, but I don't feel I know exactly what's happening. It's strange the DXD version has -45dBFS ultrasonic noise, but that's nothing compared to the DSD version with (in the same bandwidth) -26dBFS ultrasonic noise. If DXD is edited DSD, how is it so much better? If DXD is the native recording format, does the ultrasonic noise come from the converter's noise shaping, or elsewhere?

Cheers,
David.

P.S. Some of the 96kHz downconversions are slightly strange. The top ~3kHz are empty. It's not even a gentle roll off - it goes off a cliff at 45kHz. Not the Haydn though.
P.P.S. As already mentioned we're still not getting "the original bits" - because there's no DXD 5.1 download.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #13
2L says says the Haydn tracks were 'produced in DXD'  but they also offer DSD versions -- is going from DXD to DSD really something that is done?  I would expect to see the production chain go the *other* way  (DSD native recording -->DXD production)

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #14
is going from DXD to DSD really something that is done?


Pretty often yes. People still want DSD (lots of marketing pressure), and only reason to do DXD is that either source or main target is DSD.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #15
From memory, DXD is the editing format for DSD. Seems so per wikipedia.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #16
Can somene else confirm the relative noise levels? And/or "typical" native DSD noise levels in that bandwidth? It might help to figure out exactly what they've done.

Cheers,
David.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #17
Here are typical DSD noise levels. Not sure how much they modulate with the signal, but shouldn't be a lot:


15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #18
Here are typical DSD noise levels. Not sure how much they modulate with the signal, but shouldn't be a lot:




Point of order: I think those are unprocessed FFTs with constant bandwidth in terms of frequency (and that isn't said, either)  so I don't know what they mean until they are reformatted into fractional octaves - 1/3, 1/6 or 1/12.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #19
Arnie, these graphs are for David. Sure, they are regular FFTs which are always linear in frequency. I don't have equivalent graphs with octave-integrated energy.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #20
Do you know the FFT size/length (and actual sample rate at which it was calculated) and window type?

Thanks,
David.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #21
No, but this can be inferred from the graph: SR = 96 kHz, FFT size = 16384 (I could be off by 2 times).

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #22
If the "PCM 16 44" is with triangular dither then the linear spectral density [Vp/sqrt(Hz)] should be about 10 dB lower than the amplitude shown in the graph.
"I hear it when I see it."

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #23
From memory, DXD is the editing format for DSD. Seems so per wikipedia.


Yes, exactly --  one of several flavors of PCM devised so that you can actually do digital production on DSD sources while staying at ultrahigh sample rates.

But if in fact people are now recording *directly* in DXD (which, again, is a flavor of PCM), then converting to *DSD* for DSD/SACD fans -- well, I would be amused but not terribly surprised at such patent nonsense.

15 Haydn_ String Quartet In D, Op_ 76, No_ 5 - Finale - Presto 3 best

Reply #24
If the "PCM 16 44" is with triangular dither then the linear spectral density [Vp/sqrt(Hz)] should be about 10 dB lower than the amplitude shown in the graph.

I don't think so, I can repro this graph in iZotope RX or other spectrum analyzers. Perhaps you forgot about variance, the attached spectrum is clearly time-averaged.

 
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