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Topic: Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping (Read 51701 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #125 –
"("Clipping" is what an amplifier does

to the musical signal when driven beyond its rated

  power output.) If you find this biting edge on the

  sound attractive (some do) and continue operating

your stereo system this way, you are gambling with

  the life of your tweeters. They can reproduce short

  bursts of high-frequency energy brilliantly, but a continuous

  diet of clipping distortion is murder. This is a

  situation where a high-power amplifier, reproducing

  the signal loud and clear, can actually be safer than a

  lower-power amp which is continuously driven into

  distortion."

Loudspeaker Failure:

Its causes and prevention

By Peter W. Mitchell [veteran audio reviewer for decades]

an astrophysicist with the Avco Everett

Research Laboratory, is president of the Boston

Audio Society and co-moderator of a Boston FM program

devoted to audio matters

AUGUST 1974

Reprinted by permission of Stereo Review magazine

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #126 –
Truth About Matching Amplifier Power to Loudspeakers     

Clipping, impedance, heat, sensitivity, blown drivers, and other annoying mysteries…

"You may have heard that too little power will blow a tweeter faster than too much power, and that's not exactly true. Usually when a loudspeaker is damaged, it's from too much power for too long a duration, or playing it excessively loud for even a short period. What is true about the "too little power" statement is that when a receiver or amplifier is driven into hard clipping, the resulting distortion has more nasty high frequency content making it easier to damage a tweeter."

- Audioholics A/V online magazine
June 23rd, 2015

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #127 –
Quote from: mzil on
Even an amp that may seem rated safely below the loudspeaker's power handling capacity


What's the power rating though? IEC 268-5 for example uses pink noise with 6 dB crest band pass filtered 40 Hz to 5 kHz, 12 dB/octave.
"I hear it when I see it."

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #128 –
Quote from: mzil on
"("Clipping" is what an amplifier does

to the musical signal when driven beyond its rated

  power output.) If you find this biting edge on the

  sound attractive (some do) and continue operating

your stereo system this way, you are gambling with

  the life of your tweeters. They can reproduce short

  bursts of high-frequency energy brilliantly, but a continuous

  diet of clipping distortion is murder. This is a

  situation where a high-power amplifier, reproducing

  the signal loud and clear, can actually be safer than a

  lower-power amp which is continuously driven into

  distortion."

Loudspeaker Failure:

Its causes and prevention

By Peter W. Mitchell [veteran audio reviewer for decades]

an astrophysicist with the Avco Everett

Research Laboratory, is president of the Boston

Audio Society and co-moderator of a Boston FM program

devoted to audio matters

AUGUST 1974

Reprinted by permission of Stereo Review magazine
I remember, back in the early 80's when car audio had under-dash amplifier/equalizers, we had many complaints about tweeters being blown.  The complaint was that the amp was rated at about 20 wpc and the speakers were rated for higher. Invariably, the equalizers were set in the typical "smiley face" configuration and these guys would max out the volume control, which resulted in G*d awful sound, but it WAS loud.  A cacophony, but loud and loud was more important than sound quality to these cretins.  Conversely, when the speaker manufacturer refused to honor the warranty, there were problems so we put the customer in direct contact with the manufacturer.

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #129 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Or...    Since JBL is mainly in the speaker business,

JBL recommends using Crown amplifiers and DSPs... Crown, like JBL, happens to be a subsidiary of Harman.

Quote
they are saying, "It's OK to use a smaller speaker". 

I'm not sure that this is what they are trying to communicate.  When was the last time you said to yourself: "I'll just buy the smaller speaker because then my amp will have more reserve power."?

Quote
I actually believe JBL is trying to give good-reasonable advice to their professional customers.

Not saying they're ill intentioned; it is in JBL's own best interest to educate their customers, so they won't blow their speakers and be upset.

Suppose you were working in "the industry" and there was this detail which -- while technically correct -- was blown somewhat out of proportion but would motivate your customers to spend more money... How hard would you fight to set the record straight?

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #130 –
Ok, let's see:
Bob Lee says: a clipping amp can output plenty of average power which is enough to blow a speaker. Then there is some speculation about why users might crank a clipping amp to provide more average power than a larger, not-clipping amp, leading to dying tweeters. He might be onto something, but it's not the clipping per se, but the increase in average power which is killing the speaker.

Peter W. Mitchell speculates: some might actually prefer the sound of clipping and will try to get more of it by cranking their amps even further. A stronger amp would not provide this sound and would thus not be cranked as much. But it must be the increased average power which is causing the failure since "[tweeters] can reproduce short bursts of high-frequency energy brilliantly".

Audioholics first and foremost places the blame on average power. But they are the only ones even mentioning that the distortion products result in additional high frequency energy, which technically puts more stress on the tweeter, but there is no mention of the severity of the issue.


To summarize: the quotes that were posted cite average power as the culprit for fried speakers, which is in perfect agreement with the link I posted. In addition we have some speculation how a clipping amp might encourage a user to increase the gain more than he would on a more powerful amp.

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #131 –
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but simply lowering the volume on the amp (let's say 3 dB) can add considerable headroom to an amp's voltage/current peak reserves?

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #132 –
If an amplifier is clipping, lowering the volume by 3 dB doesn't necessarily mean that it is no longer clipping.

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #133 –
I'm not aware of a volume control that also adjusts power supply characteristics, for that matter, either.

In terms of what is "considerable," 10dB (tenfold) is the generally accepted increase in power needed to double perceived volume. With this in mind, it shouldn't be all that difficult to comprehend that 3dB isn't all that significant.  Of course you could simply verify this for yourself.

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #134 –
Quote from: pdq on
If an amplifier is clipping, lowering the volume by 3 dB doesn't necessarily mean that it is no longer clipping.


But isn't 3 dB a doubling of power? So it would seem to me that reducing the volume by 3 dB is quite substantial if clipping was involved.

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #135 –
Read my post above. You should really experiment for yourself if you honestly can't relate these things to the tangible world.

Asking (or rather, rephrasing) questions where the only answer you seem to find acceptable is "yes" still isn't serving you very well.  This assumes you're actually here to learn sonething, of course.

Coming from a different angle, do you even take the time to enjoy content (that is to say media, not hardware) in between all this esoteric wanking?

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #136 –
Quote from: greynol on
Read my post above. You should really experiment for yourself if you honestly can't relate these things to the tangible world.

Asking (or rather, rephrasing) questions where the only answer you seem to find acceptable is "yes" still isn't serving you very well.  This assumes you're actually here to learn sonething, of course.

Coming from a different angle, do you even take the time to enjoy content (that is to say media, not hardware) in between all this esoteric wanking?


Yes, I enjoy listening to music. Do you? As opposed to all the technical wanking?

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #137 –
Quote from: greynol on
I'm not aware of a volume control that also adjusts power supply characteristics, for that matter, either.


Uh, but if you turn the volume down on the amp then the amp's not using it's full capabilities, duh. So at lower levels there is headroom for peak transients.

That's why I said, turning the volume down gives the amp a better chance of handling peak voltage/current in situations that demand it. You're like 'I'm not aware of a volume control...'. 

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #138 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote from: greynol on
Read my post above. You should really experiment for yourself if you honestly can't relate these things to the tangible world.

Asking (or rather, rephrasing) questions where the only answer you seem to find acceptable is "yes" still isn't serving you very well.  This assumes you're actually here to learn sonething, of course.

Coming from a different angle, do you even take the time to enjoy content (that is to say media, not hardware) in between all this esoteric wanking?


Yes, I enjoy listening to music. Do you? As opposed to all the technical wanking?

That's a strange statement, coming from someone who only seems interested in technical minutiae.

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #139 –
Quote from: pdq on
If an amplifier is clipping, lowering the volume by 3 dB doesn't necessarily mean that it is no longer clipping.



Agreed, but it does mean that it is clipping less.

Audible symptoms of amplifier clipping

Reply #140 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Quote from: greynol on
I'm not aware of a volume control that also adjusts power supply characteristics, for that matter, either.


Uh, but if you turn the volume down on the amp then the amp's not using it's full capabilities, duh. So at lower levels there is headroom for peak transients.

That's why I said, turning the volume down gives the amp a better chance of handling peak voltage/current in situations that demand it. You're like 'I'm not aware of a volume control...'. 

Why are you asking the question if you already "know" the answer?

Quote from: Rich B on
Correct me if I'm wrong here, [...]


Besides your awkward description, "adding headroom to peak reserves," with which I take only minor issue, I corrected where you are wrong, per your request(!).  Since you didn't acknowledge it, I'll repeat it below:
Quote from: greynol on
In terms of what is "considerable," 10dB (tenfold) is the generally accepted increase in power needed to double perceived volume. With this in mind, it shouldn't be all that difficult to comprehend that 3dB isn't all that significant. Of course you could simply verify this for yourself.


Quote from: Rich B on
[...] lowering the volume on the amp (let's say 3 dB) can add considerable headroom to an amp's voltage/current peak reserves?

Do you honestly think noticeable and "considerable" are synonyms? They aren't.

Quote from: Rich B on
But isn't 3 dB a doubling of power? So it would seem to me that reducing the volume by 3 dB is quite substantial if clipping was involved.

Some clipping vs. no clipping is only "quite substantial" if you treating the situation as dividing by zero; however, the reality here is that you're taking about increasing output power by only a paltry 3dB.

Now maybe some venue could use a 3dB increase in power because without the increase its needs would not quite be met.  From all your other posts on the subject, it is readily clear that this isn't the case for you.  So yeah, this is nothing more than technical wanking.