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From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

MESSAGE FROM BILLY CORGAN
Hello from The Zwan!!!

We are playing for the first time in Tokyo, and as always, have been given a very warm reception by our great Japanese audience. Everyone in Zwan is doing well, and we look forward to getting to play the Mary Star album for everyone and anyone. Recently, some concerns have come to light regarding the 'sound' of the album, and there seems to be confusion about whether or not there is a problem, which is understandable in the warm 'digital' age. So from my mouth to your ear, here's the deal: We set out to make the loudest fucking rock and roll album that was humanly possible. No detail was too small, and by that I mean that everything, and I mean everything on the album is distorted by yours truly. I became obsessed by the sound of the great mono albums of the sixties, whether it be Dusty Springfield, The Walker Brothers, The Stones, The Who, The Kinks, etc. and their compressed excitement. so if our album is blowing up your speakers or making your dog cry, I can't say I'm sorry, but I do apologize for any worries this may have caused. Mary Star of the Sea uses everything but the kitchen sink in the analog or digital domain to push the sound of Zwan past the blur into something that feels fresh and exciting, and most importantly, LOUD at any volume.

So crank it up, and sit back and enjoy what it sounds like for us on stage in the overdriven glory.

We love you!!!
....BC

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #1
Quote
So crank it up, and sit back and enjoy what it sounds like for us on stage in the overdriven glory.

  Boy, I used to enjoy listening to the older smashing pumpkins CDs, but this is rediculous.  Either all of them have no clue as to how overcompressing can really harm the material, or they all suffer from some degree of hearing damage.  Don't get me wrong, I really like listening to their music, but I have to stop after about 2 minutes

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #2
I don't mind overcompression and all of that if that was the full intent of the artist, since that was their vision when they set out to do the record. I just have problems with it when people do it thinking that it will make their record sound louder on the radio or out of total ignorance.
iTunes 10 - Mac OS X 10.6
256kbps AAC VBR
iPhone 4 32GB

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #3
Quote
I don't mind overcompression and all of that if that was the full intent of the artist, since that was their vision when they set out to do the record. I just have problems with it when people do it thinking that it will make their record sound louder on the radio or out of total ignorance.

I must say I feel the exact opposite of you. Overcompression will make a track sound louder over the radio but the problem lies with people who overcompress their album because they think it will sound good.

Destron

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #4
Quote
I must say I feel the exact opposite of you. Overcompression will make a track sound louder over the radio but the problem lies with people who overcompress their album because they think it will sound good.

actually an overcompressed album still has to pass through the radio station's processing, and I seem to recall that this can actually end up having your particular track come out quieter than others because of the source material that their processing has to work with.

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #5
It can be used artistically, but the Zwan disc (along with Red Hot Chili Peppers and Radiohead) have some of the loudest, clippiest, most overcompressed albums in the history of music.

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #6
Quote
something that feels [...] LOUD at any volume.

YECH! 
A riddle is a short sword attached to the next 2000 years.

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #7
Does anyone have this album?  Data on how compressed/clipped it is?  Would be interesting to see what MP3Gain thinks about the levels.
Was that a 1 or a 0?

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #8
I read this a while ago, and I waffled between thinking Corgan's and idiot and thinking I'm an audio snob. The lo-fi sound can be used for artistic effect, I guess, and maybe I'm just an old codger for thinking this new "effect" is unlistenable. But most of the albums I've heard, where the artist decides to trash the audio quality for artistic effect, only have one song trashed. The rest are still intact. I guess Corgan's implying that the entire album is garbage.

Did Corgan know what he was doing when he turned his album into digital mush? His intent was to make his music loud. But somewhere along the way, he got "volume control" mixed up with "compression", and we got a crappy-sounding album. I know Corgan's got a big head, but did he think he could invent his own brand of physics? Loud at any volume. Honestly...

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #9
Quote
Does anyone have this album?  Data on how compressed/clipped it is?  Would be interesting to see what MP3Gain thinks about the levels.

I believe it was over 100dB average on some tracks. One of the worst I have.

Some compression on albums that want to sound "loud" is fine, because it adds energy otherwise lacking from a performance. In this case though it is extremely excessive and makes for a difficult listen.

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #10
It's pretty loud, but not the worst I've seen:
Code: [Select]
  Level-  |       (Peak+)|
Adjustment|  Peak (Adjst)|  Filename
----------+--------------+-----------------------------------------------------
-10.45 dB | 38759 (11637)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_01_-_Lyric.mpc
-8.94 dB | 37525 (13406)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_02_-_Settle_Down.mpc
-9.43 dB | 38399 (12966)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_03_-_Declarations_Of_Faith.mpc
-9.27 dB | 37285 (12824)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_04_-_Honestly.mpc
-7.87 dB | 33253 (13437)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_05_-_El_Sol.mpc
-4.44 dB | 33101 (19853)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_06_-_Of_A_Broken_Heart.mpc
-10.03 dB | 39057 (12308)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_07_-_Ride_A_Black_Swan.mpc
-5.13 dB | 31161 (17262)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_08_-_Heartsong.mpc
-9.94 dB | 39075 (12442)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_09_-_Endless_Summer.mpc
-10.98 dB | 39981 (11294)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_10_-_Baby_Lets_Rock.mpc
-9.37 dB | 39355 (13381)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_11_-_Yeah.mpc
-7.20 dB | 36577 (15966)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_12_-_Desire.mpc
-9.38 dB | 37949 (12888)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_13_-_Jesus,_I_,_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea.mpc
-6.89 dB | 37115 (16789)| Zwan_-_Mary_Star_Of_The_Sea_-_14_-_Come_With_Me.mpc
-9.60 dB | 39981 (13238)|
----------+--------------+-----------------------------------------------------
         | 39981 (19853)| --- maximum (title based) ---
         | 39981 (13238)| --- maximum (album based) ---

The worst I've seen:
Code: [Select]
  Level-  |       (Peak+)|
Adjustment|  Peak (Adjst)|  Filename
----------+--------------+-----------------------------------------------------
-9.95 dB | 43311 (13775)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_01_-_Animosity.mpc
-11.55 dB | 42475 (11236)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_02_-_Unsung.mpc
-11.87 dB | 46021 (11734)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_03_-_Piss.mpc
-11.54 dB | 41915 (11101)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_04_-_Lockbox.mpc
-11.49 dB | 42111 (11217)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_05_-_Broken.mpc
-12.05 dB | 44365 (11080)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_06_-_The_Light_Pours_Out_Of_Me.mpc
-10.76 dB | 41373 (11987)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_07_-_Shove.mpc
-12.09 dB | 42529 (10572)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_08_-_Impossible.mpc
-11.91 dB | 41813 (10612)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_09_-_Stolen.mpc
-10.84 dB | 43927 (12610)| Ministry_-_Animositisomina_-_10_-_Leper.mpc
-11.62 dB | 46021 (12076)|
----------+--------------+-----------------------------------------------------
         | 46021 (13775)| --- maximum (title based) ---
         | 46021 (12076)| --- maximum (album based) ---

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #11
Quote
MESSAGE FROM BILLY CORGAN
so if our album is blowing up your speakers

dude admits he knows it can blow speakers, hehe.  class action lawsuit for blown speakers! that'll teach 'im

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #12
That's great. Bad mixing is now intentional. Next they are going to tell us their years of bad playing was intentional too.

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #13
Can I ask how you generated those volume assessments with your mpc's?  I'm looking at a way to gauge how loud some of my own tracks so I can balance them for compilation.  Doing so manually takes forever and there is a large swaying between values between each listen - some numbers can't hurt.  It would be great if they worked on waves!

What I don't understand is when did listeners become incapable of deciding the volume themselves?  Amplifiers and speakers don't come with a volume control for no reason, if they want your music to sound loud, they can turn it up, they don't need you to digitally rape it for them.
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #14
easiest thing to do is snag foobar, scan the tracks for 'track' replaygain values, and use the diskwriter with replaygain enabled and burn your compilation cd from those wavs

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #15
I don't want to rewrite them at a lower / higher volume, I just want the information on them so that I can re-create the mixes louder or quieter
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #16
I think you can get Replaygain to write the file information to a text file. Or it can run a test on the files and doesn't write any tags.

I'm not at home at the moment so i can't remember exactly but i'm sure it can.
"If you cannot read this, please ask the flight attendant for assistance."
- United Airlines Flight Safety Brochure

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #17
Quote
Can I ask how you generated those volume assessments with your mpc's?  I'm looking at a way to gauge how loud some of my own tracks so I can balance them for compilation.  Doing so manually takes forever and there is a large swaying between values between each listen - some numbers can't hurt.  It would be great if they worked on waves!

You've been around for almost a year now and never heard about replaygain?? That must be some kind of a record...

If you only want to use it when making your compilation cd:s that's very possible by not using it in normal playback, but switching it on when writing to wave files.

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #18
Since I've got a dynamic hifi system (4 ohm speakers, 120 W ampli, listening at 1.2 meters from the speakers), overcompressed tracks give me a feeling of quiet sound instead of loud.

The last I noticed : the guns noises in "Final Flight of the Osiris" in the Animatrix DVD (listened in stereo). These guns seem to make less noise than me typing on my keyboard ! clic-clic-clic-clic-clic-clic

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #19
Sigh... I'm pretty sure Mac knows about Replaygain, he just wants to know how to generate the table of values.

You can use the Windows command prompt. Go to the directory with the MPC's you want to analyze, make sure replaygain is in the same directory (or in your path) and type:

replaygain --listdB *.mpc > table.txt

and you'll have that nicely-formatted table in table.txt in the same directory.

P.S. Californication's still takes the crown for loudest album. Some random songs from the album:
Code: [Select]
  Level-  |       (Peak+)|
Adjustment|  Peak (Adjst)|  Filename
----------+--------------+-----------------------------------------------------
-12.11 dB | +3.05 (-9.06)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Around The World.mpc
-12.12 dB | +3.21 (-8.91)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication.mpc
-12.40 dB | +2.93 (-9.47)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Easily.mpc
-12.02 dB | +2.87 (-9.15)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Emit Remmus.mpc
-12.50 dB | +2.89 (-9.61)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Get On Top.mpc
-12.79 dB | +3.84 (-8.95)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Otherside.mpc
-14.01 dB | +3.71 (-10.3)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Parallel Universe.mpc
-12.47 dB | +3.12 (-9.35)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Purple Stain.mpc
-11.84 dB | +2.63 (-9.21)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Right On Time.mpc
-8.20 dB | +1.54 (-6.66)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Road Trippin'.mpc
-10.45 dB | +2.58 (-7.87)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Savior.mpc
-11.22 dB | +2.66 (-8.56)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - Scar Tissue.mpc
-12.58 dB | +2.80 (-9.78)| Red Hot Chili Peppers - This Velvet Glove.mpc
-12.58 dB | +3.84 (-8.74)|
----------+--------------+-----------------------------------------------------
         | +3.84 (-6.66)| --- maximum (title based) ---
         | +3.84 (-8.74)| --- maximum (album based) ---


Edit: --listalldB ==> --listdB

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #20
Hehe, it's taken me a year to actually try replaygain now that I've found a use for it

What's a bit odd is that I can't actually find a copy of replaygain.exe - rarewares only has wavegain [span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'](although I could be blind)[/span] and the actual replaygain site on HA is just filled with theoretical format specs blah blah [span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'](again, could be blind)[/span]

Wavegain seems to have done the trick with its default mode, and your suggestion of making a > table.txt out of it - thanks

It seems reasonably happy with the volumes of my tracks, the ones I've remixed at a proper volume are +1.5dB to -2.5dB..  Is it fair to assume that's the right range to be heading for? (for electronic music)
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #21
Just a quick question...  my worst ever offence has been analysed

Code: [Select]
    Gain   |  Peak  | Scale | New Peak | Track
---------------------------------------------
-14.66 dB |  32767 |  0.18 |     6059 | d:\ragga.wav


First off, how do I get your copy (which shows how over-scaled it is?  And second, I hope the RHCP tracks at -14dB don't sound as horrific as mine, it's pure heartfelt clip
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #22
Quote
What's a bit odd is that I can't actually find a copy of replaygain.exe -

Ciao..

try case`s mpc page:
here

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #23
Haha, 0wned:
Venetian Snares - Songs About My Cats
Code: [Select]
    Gain   |  Peak  | Scale | New Peak | Track
---------------------------------------------
-15.21 dB |  32767 |  0.17 |     5688 | 01-Chinaski.wav
 -6.49 dB |  32767 |  0.47 |    15522 | 02-Katzesorge part 1.wav
-14.36 dB |  32767 |  0.19 |     6272 | 03-Nepetalactone.wav
-13.83 dB |  32767 |  0.20 |     6667 | 04-Poor Kakarookee.wav
-11.59 dB |  32767 |  0.26 |     8629 | 05-For Bertha Rand.wav
-14.58 dB |  32767 |  0.19 |     6116 | 06-Breakfast Time for Baboons.wav
-15.96 dB |  32767 |  0.16 |     5217 | 07-Fluff Master.wav
-13.68 dB |  32767 |  0.21 |     6783 | 08-Bobo.wav
 -5.72 dB |  32767 |  0.52 |    16960 | 09-Katzesorge part 2.wav
-12.92 dB |  32767 |  0.23 |     7403 | 10-Pouncelciot.wav
-15.40 dB |  32767 |  0.17 |     5565 | 11-Kakenrooken Stivlobits.wav
 -5.18 dB |  32767 |  0.55 |    18048 | 12-Lioness.wav
-13.82 dB |  32767 |  0.20 |     6675 | 13-Cleaning Each Other.wav
 -8.98 dB |  30185 |  0.36 |    10735 | 14-Look.wav

Recommended Album Gain: -14.80 dB

The fact that a track could SERIOUSLY need limiting to +/-5.2k makes me laugh    Despite the 3 'quiet' numbers, could this take Californications crown?






Thanks n68   

Quote
Musepack, Liking Audio
I always liked how that font looks messed up
< w o g o n e . c o m / l o l >

From the mouth of Billy Corgan...

Reply #24
I loved the Pumpkins, but I can't stand Zwan. I wonder if I'd like them better if the CD didn't sound so terrible :/

 
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