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Topic: Samples with high DR (Read 16741 times) previous topic - next topic
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Samples with high DR

Reply #25 –
Quote
And I've heard the differences only on a simple synthetic samples like -60 dB sine, etc.
I assume you had to boost the volume (by a lot ) to hear the difference?   

For example, if you take a sine wave that alternates between 0dB and -60dB every 2-seconds.  Can you hear the difference between 16 and 24-bits without touching the volume control?    I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure I can't hear much "detail" at -60dB (relative to reasonable listening levels).    And, I wouldn't expect this experiment to get any easier at -70, -80, or -90dB.

Samples with high DR

Reply #26 –
While I have no evidence to present, I've had conversations with a couple of specialists in hearing who shared the opinion that the published OSHA specifications are partially a political compromise that lets many industries maintain not so expensive working environments.

In more direct terms, it is quite likely that slow, progressive damage takes place at some significantly lesser levels and exposure times than the published charts. Such lower sound levels might not lose you your total hearing within a normal lifetime but probably contribute to the "age related" declines that many people experience. Perhaps I am simply more sensitive to the aggravation and unpleasant of higher sound levels than average (not the same thing as having more sensitive hearing), but this seems quite reasonable and likely to me.

At any rate, there is generally some decline in hearing from exposure to loud sounds. When not too extreme, it may be completely temporary, and maybe not noticeable without accurate tests. It if it sound is energetic enough, the recovery generally takes longer and can easily be less than complete. Add up enough instances and the permanent decline will become unpleasantly noticeable.

Samples with high DR

Reply #27 –
Consider that the estimates are that a sizeable proportion of teenagers and young adults are destroying their own hearing by listening to music at high levels, especially through hadphones. Apparently, none of them experience these levels as painful or unpleasant

Samples with high DR

Reply #29 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
Consider that the estimates are that a sizeable proportion of teenagers and young adults are destroying their own hearing by listening to music at high levels, especially through hadphones. Apparently, none of them experience these levels as painful or unpleasant


Whether this is real is not clear to me. If you want to damage your hearing you have lots of opportunities.

(1) Play in a musical group, even one that is purely acoustic. Take a SPL meter to a rehearsal by even a mid-sized classical group, check levels at various places on stage, and you'll probably be grossed out.  Electric instruments and rock n roll just reduce the size of group it takes.

(2) Use power tools without hearing protection. Even some household appliances such as vacuum cleaners are either are loud as sold or become that way in normal use.

(3) Work in a noisy environment. OSHA has done some good but as others have pointed out, they could do more. This is true of factories and job sites.

(4) Have a noisy hobby like shooting firearms or riding a motorcycle.

IME many young musicians have pretty well toasted their ears by the time they are in their early 20s.

One way I sense this is that I work with people who are mixing live sound. I sometimes wonder how anybody who can hear can mix that badly. Then I do some checking on lifestyles.

Samples with high DR

Reply #32 –
Reading Monty's aricle.

Quote
The hair cells of the cochlea themselves posses only a fraction of the ear's 140dB range; musculature in the ear continuously adjust the amount of sound reaching the cochlea by shifting the ossicles, much as the iris regulates the amount of light entering the eye [9]. This mechanism stiffens with age, limiting the ear's dynamic range and reducing the effectiveness of its protection mechanisms [10].


So 140 dB is not "true" DR of our hearing, so to speak it's true only for long periods, but not for quickly changing loudness. So I wonder: what is the real full dynamic range of our hearing, I mean DR covered by hair cells, without hearing adaptation. Any information/numbers on this?
🇺🇦 Glory to Ukraine!

Samples with high DR

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Steve Forte Rio on
Reading Monty's aricle.

Quote
The hair cells of the cochlea themselves posses only a fraction of the ear's 140dB range; musculature in the ear continuously adjust the amount of sound reaching the cochlea by shifting the ossicles, much as the iris regulates the amount of light entering the eye [9]. This mechanism stiffens with age, limiting the ear's dynamic range and reducing the effectiveness of its protection mechanisms [10].


So 140 dB is not "true" DR of our hearing, so to speak it's true only for long periods, but not for quickly changing loudness. So I wonder: what is the real full dynamic range of our hearing, I mean DR covered by hair cells, without hearing adaptation. Any information/numbers on this?


The usual dynamic range of the human ear that is given is usually the difference between the threshold of serious damage and the threshold of hearing.

Anybody who has experienced very loud noises is probably aware of the effects of loud noises sustained over any period of time on the threshold of hearing.

The phrase "a deafening noise" is not just figurative and its not just hyperbole.

These effects are also dependent on the spectral content of the loud noise.

I once asked JJ what the instantaneous dynamic range of the human ear is, and if memory serves, he said "About 60 dB".

Samples with high DR

Reply #35 –
The ear also has the ability to decrease DR as a form of self-protection. This ability decreases as you age (note my previous post about age).  If the hysteresis is longer than than true auditory memory then this 140dB figure being bandied about goes out the window.

Samples with high DR

Reply #36 –
How does auditory memory play a part in dynamic range? If the full auditory system processed it, one heard the sound, either at the soft or loud end of the spectrum. If adjustment mechanisms are slow and one does not hear a second sound, too different in loudness from the first, one does not hear it, so it is outside the dynamic DR of hearing, but may be within the absolute DR of hearing.

The fact that one remembers, or does not remember, just what the first sounded like, or may not remember enough to properly catagorize the differences, is irrelevant to the fact that something was heard, or not heard. The hearing is what establishes the DR, not what one thinks or believes about it afterwards.

Samples with high DR

Reply #37 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
The hearing is what establishes the DR, not what one thinks or believes about it afterwards.

Yes, I think you're right about that.

Samples with high DR

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I once asked JJ what the instantaneous dynamic range of the human ear is, and if memory serves, he said "About 60 dB".


Well, 60 dB, it seems to be true. But we need a proof, maybe a result of some scientific researches, etc.


Quote from: greynol on
The ear also has the ability to decrease DR as a form of self-protection. This ability decreases as you age (note my previous post about age).  If the hysteresis is longer than than true auditory memory then this 140dB figure being bandied about goes out the window.


That's what I'm talking about.  Instantaneous dynamic range of hearing, without self-protection and any adjustments.

Quote from: AndyH-ha on
How does auditory memory play a part in dynamic range? If the full auditory system processed it, one heard the sound, either at the soft or loud end of the spectrum. If adjustment mechanisms are slow and one does not hear a second sound, too different in loudness from the first, one does not hear it, so it is outside the dynamic DR of hearing, but may be within the absolute DR of hearing.

The fact that one remembers, or does not remember, just what the first sounded like, or may not remember enough to properly catagorize the differences, is irrelevant to the fact that something was heard, or not heard. The hearing is what establishes the DR, not what one thinks or believes about it afterwards.


I wasn't talking about auditory memory at all (If I understand you correctly), only about self-protection mechanism of hearing.
🇺🇦 Glory to Ukraine!

Samples with high DR

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Steve Forte Rio on
So I wonder: what is the real full dynamic range of our hearing, I mean DR covered by hair cells, without hearing adaptation. Any information/numbers on this?
There are several adaptation feedback loops in and around the ear. The hair cells themselves are binary - they fire, or they don't. Higher processing aggregates their response. The range between firing at random (i.e. effectively no input) and as many of them firing as quickly as they can (i.e. saturated input) is only about 20-30dB.

This isn't a meaningful figure for hearing research, because only dead ears (dead people!) with all the adaptation gone exhibit this.

You want to Google temporal masking.

Cheers,
David.

Samples with high DR

Reply #40 –
You mean the Haas effect? The issue is that it (EDIT: temporal masking) goes away after a brief period of time.  A musical passage with sound 110 dB down from a peak crescendo that hits FS some minutes earlier will not be affected by the ear's protection mechanism, unless that mechanism was able to instantaneously lower the perceived loudness of that initial peak. Maybe it does, I don't know, IANAE. It wasn't what I was suggesting, anyway.

Samples with high DR

Reply #42 –
My bad, of course you weren't.  Does the Haas effect have anything to do with self-protection or the perception of DR?

I hope that didn't ruin what I thought was an otherwise OK post.  I can't remember the name of the physicsal/muscular mechanism that temporarily shifts the ATH, which is different from temporal masking. No, I didn't think it was the Haas effect either.

Samples with high DR

Reply #43 –
One of the monitors here does acoustical engineering, along with other audio related practices, and seems to have a lot of information about hearing on hand. He may be able to give you some figures based on established research.
http://www.audiomastersforum.net/

Samples with high DR

Reply #44 –
I see many CD players have a higher dynamic range of what the cd format requires. Does this mean that the CD player achieves this by expanding the dynamic range? If so this would not be a good test between hi-rez and CD format. Can anyone help me understand? Thank you.

Samples with high DR

Reply #45 –
Decent 24 bit DACs are inexpensive. Putting them into a CD player allows advertising the DAC specs but does not change the music extracted from a CD. Most modern POP and Rock has very low dynamic range, the goal of modern mastering. To some lesser extent this is also now applied to much music of other genera.

Samples with high DR

Reply #46 –
Quote from: cool n hot on
I see many CD players have a higher dynamic range of what the cd format requires. Does this mean that the CD player achieves this by expanding the dynamic range? If so this would not be a good test between hi-rez and CD format. Can anyone help me understand? Thank you.


As explained here 16/44.1 can reach up to 120 dB of DR. So theoretically it makes a sense.
🇺🇦 Glory to Ukraine!

Samples with high DR

Reply #47 –
Quote from: cool n hot on
I see many CD players have a higher dynamic range of what the cd format requires.
A string of zeros (no dither) = silence = the quietest possible signal on CD = infinite SNR required to reproduce it correctly.

...in theory. In practice 1) who cares, 2) some CDs players have a special "silence detect" function that mutes their outputs when the signal is all zeros. This gives ridiculous and misleading measurements in a dumb SNR test which compares maximum output against output with all zeros as input.

Cheers,
David.

Samples with high DR

Reply #48 –
I've found one high-quality DVD-Audio source - Mark Knopfler's "Sailing to Philadelphia". Here is result for analysis of my downmix to stereo of 7th track:

Quote
Left   Right
Peak Amplitude:   -4,82 dB   -6,09 dB
True Peak Amplitude:   -4,78 dBTP   -6,09 dBTP
Maximum Sample Value:   3882306   3987024
Minimum Sample Value:   -4814780   -4159280
Possibly Clipped Samples:   0   0
Total RMS Amplitude:   -24,95 dB   -24,51 dB
Maximum RMS Amplitude:   -16,81 dB   -16,18 dB
Minimum RMS Amplitude:   -117,51 dB   -111,34 dB
Average RMS Amplitude:   -29,17 dB   -28,97 dB
DC Offset:   0,00 %   0,00 %
Measured Bit Depth:   24   24
Dynamic Range:   100,70 dB   95,16 dB
Dynamic Range Used:   95,55 dB   91,60 dB
Loudness:   -22,99 dB   -21,86 dB
Perceived Loudness:   -21,07 dB   -20,74 dB
ITU-R BS.1770-2 Loudness: -23,09 LUFS

0dB = FS Square Wave
Using RMS Window of 50,00 ms
Account for DC = true


And RMS histogram (right channel):


So 24 bit is not so useless (at least technically), as I thought before.
🇺🇦 Glory to Ukraine!

Samples with high DR

Reply #49 –
That's a nice CD (I don't have it, or the DVD, but I've heard it in demos). How can you be sure that the -115dB samples are at all relevant? It could be during the fade out.

Cheers,
David.