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Topic: Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect? (Read 4334 times) previous topic - next topic
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Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Hi. I've been out of the loop for a long time. This question is mainly for the purpose of achieving great audio for my car stereo system.

I have a CarPC in my trunk and use Foobar2K exclusively. I'm a music lover and I'm just wondering what is the current solution for achieving the best sound quality from foobar, to a digital signal processor, such as the Alpine PXA-H701(which can decode 5.1 DD/DTS audio)? I want to get the purest and cleanest signal possible. Is bit perfect  still the way to go?

If so, are the onboard audio chips from Realtek, such as the ACL887 capable of delivering bit perfect audio? Is bit perfect audio even relevant anymore? Or is there a new type of audio signal that foobar can deliver in Windows 7 that's even cleaner/better?

I am running a TOSLINK S/PDIF cable directly to the Alpine DSP that in turn decodes the signal.

Am I fine using the on board audio or do you suggest purchasing one of the newer Sound Blaster cards? Keep in mind I want bit perfect audio no matter what.

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #1 –
Listening music in car will never give you any kind of perfectness and "bit perfectness" will not add to this any value. Bit perfect output is nearly indistinguishable from standard one even on PC in home, in proper listening environment. In car you need good equalization rather than "bit perfect output". Unclear sound may come from acoustic properties of your car's interior finish, rather than from "bad sound output" from CarPC's foobar installation. You need to adjust equalizers to your own private preferences and not to search for any "audible holy grail".

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: EpicForever on
Bit perfect output is nearly indistinguishable from standard one even on PC in home, in proper listening environment.


Sorry but your credibility was completely shot when you made that comment.

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #3 –
Why? Not being guaranteed bit-perfect is certainly not a guarantee of actually having any differences. This applies especially when we consider audibility instead of theory. Please specify how many audible errors you expect in non-bit-perfect streams and why. In reality, the differences are almost certainly limited to simple, almost always inaudible quantisation noise introduced by volume controls and suchlike. EpicForever was indicating that you should probably worry more about other stages of your listening environment than about preserving bit-perfectness, if a choice between the two arises.

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: isamu on
Keep in mind I want bit perfect audio no matter what.

Even if there is a new type of audio signal that foobar can deliver in Windows 7 that's even cleaner/better?

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: db1989 on
Why? Not being guaranteed bit-perfect is certainly not a guarantee of actually having any differences. This applies especially when we consider audibility instead of theory. Please specify how many audible errors you expect in non-bit-perfect streams and why. In reality, the differences are almost certainly limited to simple, almost always inaudible quantisation noise introduced by volume controls and suchlike. EpicForever was indicating that you should probably worry more about other stages of your listening environment than about preserving bit-perfectness, if a choice between the two arises.


You're missing the point. My argument was that people were saying that upon using a bit perfect stream, an external DAC or SoundBlaster sound card *still* provides better sound quality than using an onboard sound chip such as the RealTek ALC887, and I called BS on this because a digital signal is a digital signal(ie x and o's).

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: isamu on
You're missing the point. My argument was that people were saying that upon using a bit perfect stream, an external DAC or SoundBlaster sound card *still* provides better sound quality than using an onboard sound chip such as the RealTek ALC887, and I called BS on this because a digital signal is a digital signal(ie x and o's).
I’m missing the point? Which people ever said any of that, and where? Certainly not anyone in this thread and certainly not this person, who is the only option and the only person you quoted:
Quote from: EpicForever on
Bit perfect output is nearly indistinguishable from standard one even on PC in home, in proper listening environment.
Quote
indistinguishable
And again, I ask: why does that statement divest EpicForever of all credibility? Is he not agreeing with what you just said? So who are these unidentified other people who disagree with you?

Anyway, your question quoted by greynol suggests that you’re not really sure what you’re talking about when you invoke bit-perfect audio:
Quote from: isamu on
Is bit perfect audio even relevant anymore? Or is there a new type of audio signal that foobar can deliver in Windows 7 that's even cleaner/better?
What is more perfect than perfect?

Also, digital signals are composed of 0s and 1s, not os and xs.

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #7 –
@isamu: My point is: if both "bit perfect output" and "proper equalization" changes audible quality of sound, then equalization creates huge change and bit perfectness creates only a very small one. Like 1000000000 : 1 .
Additionally here is something that you should think about:
- Have you ever read what is bit perfect output and why people use it? (hint: it's sending same bitstream from app as normally, but with omitting Windows Mixer, it is used mostly when someone connects PC to AV receiver in home, where there is no engine roaring, no aerodynamic noise and speakers can be placed as you wish, and not as is allowed by car construction - so maybe there is a point in such high fidelity strictness. Windows Mixer may or may not alter that bistream, depending on signal fed and its settings, so "bit perfect output" may be potentially even the same as Windows Mixer output)
- Let's say that indeed "bit perfect output" creates measurable difference from standard DirectSound. Have you ever thought about the difference between "measurable" and "sensible"? (hint: some measurement instruments built by human beings are able to count single alpha particles. This means we can build measurement units far more sensible than our senses. For example sound measuring instruments. Do you think your ears are as sensible as those units? Especially in car?)

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: isamu on
[...] because a digital signal is a digital signal(ie x and o's).

And that statement shoots YOUR credibility to smithereens.

A digital signal can convey any data. It uses 1's and 0's, as stated already. IF both signals are 'bit-perfect' there is no difference in data. So in a way you're right. You're missing a final stage though: D->A conversion. At some point this digital stream will need to be translated to an analogue signal before it gets amplified. This is what DAC's and dedicated sound cards tend to be 'better' at, often measurably. Whether or not these differences are audible is a different question (to which the answer is often: no).

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #9 –
Awesome, thanks for the detailed explanation and excellent replies Propheticus, Epic and DB1989 

After reading your feedback I think I feel comfortable using the onboard Realtek ALC887 chip to feed my Alpine PXA-H701. The 701 itself would be the "DAC" in the sound chain. So it would be: PC ONBOARD Sound>PXA-H701>Car AMP>speakers. I just wanted to confirm I can bypass using an external sound card for the PC.

Haven't had that good experience with SB in my old setup.
 

Foobar2000, on board Realtek drivers and Bit Perfect?

Reply #10 –
That probably won't be an issue. Of far more influence to the sound are: environment (car: bad), speakers (using a car door as a speaker enclosure is far from optimal) and the source. The sound card is the least of your worries. Most (recent) onboard solutions will do fine.