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Topic: how to burn cd without gaps? (Read 7566 times) previous topic - next topic
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how to burn cd without gaps?

hi to all!!!

what is the best program/way to burn a cd from several mp3's files so that there will be no
gaps between each track (mp3 file) like dance/house music cd's


thanks

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #1 –
I would think that most burn programs can supress and/or change the normal 2 second gap.  For sure
Nero, EZCD Creator, and burnatonce can.  IF the program has a choice of "track at once" and "disk at once"
burning you should pick "disk at once" (DAO), then there should be some check box option for the gap.

The other issue which some obsess over, is that mp3 files can't arbitrarily match up to the length
of a song, so there may be a bit of silence at the end.  This is typically on the order of 0.01 seconds
and will take some fiddling if you really want to get rid of it.

I've never done it, but the other thing is you can use something like winamp to overlap the songs
so one fades in as the other fades out.  I believe you then end up with 1 long wave file for the
whole CD than then have to use a burn program that lets you program the track markers with a cue file.
I'm sure it isn't too  hard to figure out, but I'll wait for someone who has done it to detail
the easiest way.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #2 –
yup...


regarding those tree..

a. Nero (burning rom) certainly had.. a problem with gapless..
it`s have been reported.. that even you set the size to zero..
Nero adds a "mini-gap" (hopefully fixed by now)

but if you use nero in express mode.. the glitch
is gone..
(this should be impossible..: i feed nero express one.. non
red-book file once.. "mono, 16, 44100"
and express converted it to stereo..)

b. i strongly recommend you to leave the creator alone..


c. BAO is the winner of these tree.. no doubt..


how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #3 –
in EAC make sure the "Add 2 Second Gap On Append" is unchecked then drag & drop your mp3 files in the layout editor window, you'll SEE before burning how your tracks will be burned
(if i were you i'd decompress the mp3 to wav first)

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #4 –
use burnatonce
"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #5 –
The problem is that the silence is inside the MP3 file, so you'll have a small pause even if you set the pauses to 0.
You have to delete that silence manually apart from set the pauses to 0.

There's more. Most burning programs can't burn correctly tracks that are not multiple of a CD-DA sector (588 samples), like most MP3s. So, even if you cut the silence you need a program that can burn those tracks correctly.


Nero will cut the end of the track, and the others will add silence.

The only one I know that you can use without buying is Feurio.
It's easy and reliable (very "visible" and you can hear the result before burning).
Simply select the position of the end (with the help of zoom) and press "Set end position".
Or select the start position and press "Set start position".
This editor is non-destructive, so the original files are not modified.
The project settings must be configured to "Do not insert pauses between tracks - round track markers".



From Feurio:
"This is caused by the MP3-format:
The mp3-format is a kind of compression with some loss of data, i.e. not the whole samples are stored, but - expressed in a simple way - some kind of "frequency curves", i.e. the mp3-encoder analyses a certain range of data and then stores the "frequency curves" for this range.
If now e.g. a live recording is stored in parts - one part in the first file, the following part in the second file - and compressed to the mp3-format, the encoding process is resetted for the second file - so the frequence curves (the end of the first file and the beginning of the second) don't match exactly.
In addition most mp3-files are "frame orientated", i.e. the encoder sometimes adds empty samples to the end of a file to get a whole frame at the end.

To put it together: Unfortunately it is not possible to always reconstruct the original data 100%-ly out of two mp3-files, that contain parts of continuous data.
If you want to work with continouos data, you must save all tracks into ONE mp3-file or use the wave-format."

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #6 –
Quote
BAO is the winner of these tree.. no doubt..


I've just tried BAO, and it works like most software.
It fills the tracks with silence if the length of the track is not multiple of 588 samples.

You can be sure that if the software doesn't have several options for gaps you won't be able to do what you want.

Most software, including BAO or Easy CD Creator fills with silence. There's no way you can burn MP3s without silence between tracks with these programs. (unless you trim on sector boundaries)

Nero chops your music!!! No more options. (maybe no silence but you lose music).


Feurio has 2 options for gaps:
- Insert no pauses between the tracks - round track marks
In this mode Feurio! do not insert any pauses between the wave files, the wave files will be burned directly one after the other.
Unfortunately there is a little problem with it: Due to the structure of the CD directory the start of a track always has to be a sector start. A CD-Audio sector contains 588 samples.
If you use wave files that do not contain a multiple of 588 samples the next starting position can not be set exactly. In this mode Feurio! sets the track mark to the nearest sector start, i. e. the start position will be shifted a maximum of 294 samples.
If you attach great importance to exact start positions, you have to choose the mode ”Minimum pauses - Fill up tracks to multiple of sector size”


- Minimum pauses - Fill up tracks to multiple of sector size
In this mode Feurio! inserts exactly as many null samples at the end of each wave file as are required to get a multiple of the CD sector size.
If the used wave files already contain a multiple of the CD sector size, no additional null samples are added.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #7 –
If you are talking about creating a regular audio CD from MP3s, I will explain how to do it using Roxio EZ CD Creator. First, you should convert your MP3s to WAVs. Although EZ CD Creator does it itself (if you add the MP3s directly to the "Project"), it is recommended to use other softwares to do it such as CDex. Then, add the songs to the "Project" as EZ CD Creator calls it. Then when you hit the record button, check the Disc-at-Once option. This is (as far as I know) the only way to avoid the 2 sec gap using EZ CD Creator.
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how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #8 –
MP3s can't be burned gaplessly without editing, MP3 is not a gapless format
"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #9 –
Quote
This is (as far as I know) the only way to avoid the 2 sec gap using EZ CD Creator.

No.
That works with WAVs ripped from a CD (and length not modified).

· 1st. MP3s (and WAVs decoded from MP3 obviously) have silence at the start and end of file.

· 2nd. The length of MP3s (and WAVs decoded from MP3) will not be multiple of a CD-Audio sector, so EZCDCreator has to fill the track with silence to make it multiple of a CD-DA sector.


To avoid the first issue you have to edit the file. (I do it with Feurio Track Editor: it's the fastest because it's non destructive)
To avoid the second you have to use a programs that does what Feurio does. None of the named programs is able to do that. (Again, I do it with Feurio)

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #10 –
You guys are getting into that roundoff gap/truncation rant again.  Is that really  significant in this context (dance disk, not gapless track marker on the original CD) ? It IS only about a hudredth of a second.  Eliminating the 2 seconds is the big thing (and I think the thrust of the originator's question)

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #11 –
We are in an audio forum, aren't we?  B)

Why would we do things incorrectly when we can do it correctly with the same effort?
You don't have to do anything to avoid that 2nd problem, except selecting "Do not insert pauses between tracks" in Feurio, or another program that has that option. It's easier than having to set 0 seconds pauses in Nero (always)...

What takes time is editing the files to eliminate the silence inside the MP3s. They're very audible and annoying. But that's the problem with MP3 not with CD-DA sectors.


The silence caused by the sector roundoff can also be easily audible. It depends on luck how much is the silence (up to 587 samples).

- Easy test to know if you can hear that silence:
Rip some tracks that run continously.
Set "Insert silence at the beginning (index0)" to 10 ms in the "Settings" of the project in Feurio CD-Manager.
That will insert a full sector with silence, which is the maximum you could get in an MP3 compilation.
Play!

If I made an ABX test of this test I'd have guessed correctly all times.
That's something that I wouldn't be able to do if I try to distinguish between different LAME settings that are discussed here a lot of times.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #12 –
Quote
- Easy test to know if you can hear that silence:
Rip some tracks that run continously.
Set "Insert silence at the beginning (index0)" to 10 ms in the "Settings" of the project in Feurio CD-Manager.
That will insert a full sector with silence, which is the maximum you could get in an MP3 compilation.
Play!

If I made an ABX test of this test I'd have guessed correctly all times.

OK, now put it in the context of a dance disk. 

Rip some tracks that don't  run continously.  Burn them to a CD.  Take them to a party and
get people dancing to it.

A few seconds after the transition, stop the CD and yell out something like: "DIdn't you HEAR that?
That stupid burning program took a hundredth of a second off the last song!  Pay ATTENTION people!"

Repeat the 3 or 4 seconds around the transition until they get the point.

Enjoy  your new reputation.

There have been plenty of threads on the problems programs have with albums that run continous music
across track boundaries.  This was a different question.  How much difference does it make when you are
butting independant songs together?  Or crossfading them?

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #13 –
well, not only dance discs have tracks that run continuously.

Quote
A few seconds after the transition, stop the CD and yell out something like: "DIdn't you HEAR that?
That stupid burning program took a hundredth of a second off the last song! Pay ATTENTION people!"


     

I understand your point.
But I could say the same about this MP3 forum when people discuss which MP3 encoder or LAME setting is better.
Now take your MP3s encoded with perfect LAME settings and another "copy" made from Fraunhoffer at 192kbps to the same party, and yell the same "Can't you hear the difference??!!"

well, I find useful that people try to find the best encoder, and I think that Razor might find useful this info (maybe not). Probably he saw the settings in Nero or BAO about pauses but his discs still had small gaps.
It's very easy to get rid of them, so I don't see what it's the problem.


I don't understand what you mean with independant songs or crossfadings or tracks that don't run continuously to take to a party.
What I'm saying applies whenever you want no silence between tracks. If there is silence in the original there's nothing to worry. If you want crossfading you'll want no silence.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #14 –
Quote
    

I understand your point.
But I could say the same about this MP3 forum when people discuss which MP3 encoder or LAME setting is better.

I wouldn't worry about putting Xing tracks on that CD either. 
I'm ready to move on.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #15 –
Quote
The only one I know that you can use without buying is Feurio.
It's easy and reliable (very "visible" and you can hear the result before burning).
Simply select the position of the end (with the help of zoom) and press "Set end position".
Or select the start position and press "Set start position".
This editor is non-destructive, so the original files are not modified.
The project settings must be configured to "Do not insert pauses between tracks - round track markers".

The only useful comment so far, thanks minix.

To find the end-position of the track is not the problem, you can see it very obviously, but to find a matching start-point is a little complicate.
The problem is, that you cannot chose the first non-silent sample. Sometimes the previouse track ends with a rising sinus-wave, and the next track starts with a falling sinus-wave. So you have to chunk the first samples of the next track away, so that the resulting sinus-wave is continous. Otherwise you may hear a click. Sometimes you recognize the missing samples, because the beat is a little shorter than the others. Than you can chose between a click or a shorter beat. But in most cases cases it works very well and you will not notice any click or shorter beat.

But you have to do it manually.

In most cases it is better to cut the two tracks until they fit, than fading them into each other. In that case, you will always notice the one shorter beat.

I was asking myself if there is no program, that can make some analysis about the two tracks and determinates the best end- and start-positions.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #16 –
I think that apart from the different frequencies curves that Feurio explains, there's the problem you comment with "strange" samples. I think that perhaps they depend on encoder, kind of MP3 or even decoder (depending on decoder the silences can be longer I think).

Maybe MP3Trim or WavTrim can help you. It has some settings for that, but I don't do MP3 usually and I haven't tested it.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #17 –
Yet another hard aproach to a known issue (but effective, though)...

Use Winamp 2.90 with MP3-splice plugin, then record output with something like Total Recorder. If you are trying to burn a "commercial" CD (one that you can buy at stores) try to get cue sheet from here. If not, use audio editor to make your own.

It's tricky to rock a rhyme, indeed...
I'm the one in the picture, sitting on a giant cabbage in Mexico, circa 1978.
Reseñas de Rock en Español: www.estadogeneral.com

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #18 –
Neither burnatonce or cdrdao is responsible for the gaps.  The mp3 is.

Ripping a track to wav results in a file with x amount of samples.  Ripping the same track to ogg or flac also results in a file with x amount of samples.

However, ripping a track to mp3 in my experience results in a file with x + y amount of samples.  I'm guessing y = the amount of samples left to fill mp3 format's chunk size or whatever.

Now, here's the practicality of all this.  I ripped Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side Of The Moon' which, not only is a great album but has almost every track seemlessly linking into the other.  I ripped to both mp3 and ogg.

The mp3 tracks had more samples than the ogg counterparts and when written to disc using burnatonce set to 0secs there were very small, but noticable gaps when paying attention.

However, the oggs when burnt to disc in the same manner were absolutely seemless.  I'm guessing the flac and wave files will yield the same result.

Jamie

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #19 –
As explained elsewhere in this thread you can only write complete sectors to a CD.

This implies that

EITHER you can set your track boundaries at exact points and put up with the small gaps introduced (worst case about 12ms)

OR you can eliminate all gaps and put up with the offset introduced to the track boundaries (jumping to the next track would start it slightly early or late). Probably the best in your case as you seem to want continuous play.

With a heavyweight wave editor you could conceivable 'stretch' the individual track lengths to give an exact number of sectors and eliminate both problems. This would be a complex and delicate process and probably not worth the effort.

Also mentioned elsewhere is the problem of artefacts introduced by abrupt transitions between tracks. Again it is conceivable that you could introduce small amounts of cross fade or fade in/out to eliminate this and even quantise the track boundaries at the same time. It all depends on how much effort you want to put in.

UJ

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #20 –
Even when you offset track boundaries, you have gaps. Look :



Up, the original wav files, down, the decoded MP3. This was done some years ago, the encoder might have been Xing, or Blade, or Fronhaufer, or another that I don't remember the name. I once tried Lame and didn't get such a gap. Either the track was not reacting the same way, either Lame introduces smaller gaps.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #21 –
I, once, tried to split a big MP3 in frame boundaries (with MPEG Audio Scissors) in order to get continuous playing/burning, but it didn't work.

I think that the used decoder also affects the amount of samples added at the start and end.

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #22 –
An obvious reason to use .wav whenever possible.

If you have to use Mp3s would it be better to convert them to a single combined .wav and sort out any deficiencies in the decoder as best you can before re marking the tracks ?

UJ
 

how to burn cd without gaps?

Reply #23 –
Quote
would it be better to convert them to a single combined .wav

Example from the FAQ :

How to encode and burn gapless MP3s ?
Question about compression @EAC