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Topic: Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound? (Read 15293 times) previous topic - next topic
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Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #25 –
Quote from: krabapple on
By passing the DSD signal through a 'DSD-wide' stage  (aka 'PCM-narrow'    )
Well, yes, but using more than 1-bit doesn't make 1-bit itself fine. DSD-wide is fine - none of the fundamental problems Lipshitz and Vanderkooy describe can apply to it.

I like the name "PCM-narrow" - though at that bitrate, it's perfectly good PCM (if that's how you choose to implement it).

Cheers,
David.

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #26 –
Quote from: onlyconnect on
Quote from: dhromed on
Have you searched these forums? Discussion if the kind you seek is plentiful. One of the things mentioned is that the SACD version is sometimes mastered differently. The effects of that outweigh any others imparted by the format itself.


Of course. Any suggestions of helpful threads to read are welcome.

Quote from: dhromed on
What sort of experiments on SACD v. Redbook have you done yourself so far?


I have tried to repeat the Meyer-Moran test of inserting a 16/44 ADC - DAC conversion into the output and switching. Interesting but does not answer the question I posed. I do not think I can address it without more equipment than I possess.


What went wrong?

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: krabapple on
By passing the DSD signal through a 'DSD-wide' stage  (aka 'PCM-narrow'    )

You fix DSD by converting to PCM (and then back again)? Do I misunderstand? Where in the signal chain is this done?

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: krabapple on
By passing the DSD signal through a 'DSD-wide' stage  (aka 'PCM-narrow'    )

You fix DSD by converting to PCM (and then back again)? Do I misunderstand? Where in the signal chain is this done?

I've now read the Lipshitz and Vanderkooy paper - it is surprisingly accessible. It describes a fundamental problem with dithering to a 1-bit signal representation. You're always going to be creating distortion - either quantization distortion or clipping due to over-driven modulator. With noise shaping these can be moved substantially, but never completely, out of the audio band. This is not just a problem with the converters, it is a problem with the storage data format.

I'm sure all this was hashed over back in the day but I am interested to know, 10 years down the road, what was the final outcome?

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #31 –
Quote from: onlyconnect on
Quote from: krabapple on
If you start with a 'hi rez' DSD recording, and convert it to hi-rez PCM, can you identify them correctly in, say, 14 level-matched ABX trials out of 16?  Alternately, can you cite any measurable quality from which we could reasonably expect them to sound different?


Sorry, I don't see how that would help. Let's assume, for example, that DSD colours the sound but PCM does not. Why wouldn't the PCM conversion simply reproduce the coloration? This is why it is a difficult experiment. Maybe one of those Korgs that can record in either format - or two of them :-)


The Korg recorder would be an option.

There is also a Tascam recorder that is supposed to support DSD:

Technics PCM + DSD recorder link

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Notat on
I'm sure all this was hashed over back in the day but I am interested to know, 10 years down the road, what was the final outcome?
In the battle between SACD and DVD-A, the winner was... the iPod.

Cheers,
David.

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: onlyconnect on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
What went wrong?


Nothing went wrong, except that it is not testing the right thing!

That said, I found the hardest thing about setting up the test was matching the volume.



Really? How so? How did you try to do it?


I didn't "try" to do it, I did do it :-)

So for this test we want the cleanest possible path for the SACD or DVDA output to give it the best result. And we want the same output with a 16/44 ADC -> DAC step inserted.

My high-res player has two analog outputs for the left and right channels (ie two of each), which is a help.

I first disabled bass management etc in the player for the most direct output.

Then I wired up the direct output to my amp, which I switched to "pure direct" mode to disable video and EQ.

Next I wired my ADC to receive the analogue input and output it as 16/44. I connected this to a digital input on the amp.

Now I can switch between the two by changing the input selector on the amp. However, I do not want to have to adjust the main volume control on the amp when switching as this is error-prone and time-consuming. So I have to match the volume when switched. The easiest way to do this is by adjusting the the volume of the A/D conversion though I appreciate that it should not be too low otherwise I am not using all the available bits.

However, even at max the volume from the ADC is less than that direct from the SACD player on loud tracks. I got round this by only testing on quieter tracks :-)

You could get round this by using different equipment, or by using an external DAC with gain and sending an analogue signal to the amp matched to the volume of the SACD. It is all extra boxes though and you begin to wonder what you are testing.

Note that I do this for my own amusement/information and I am not pretending to match the rigour of a scientific listening test.

Tim

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #35 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
In the battle between SACD and DVD-A, the winner was... the iPod.

SACD is still available and supported by some enthusiasts. DVD-A is not. Clearly it is not exactly a VHS vs. Beta thing since, as you say, the iPod is the real winner, but I'm wondering what legs the SACD enthusiasts are standing on at this point.

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #36 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
In the battle between SACD and DVD-A, the winner was... the iPod.

SACD is still available and supported by some enthusiasts. DVD-A is not. Clearly it is not exactly a VHS vs. Beta thing since, as you say, the iPod is the real winner, but I'm wondering what legs the SACD enthusiasts are standing on at this point.


Whether or not it's been broken, the real purpose in life for both products was copy protection, which isn't allowed in CD's.
Regardless of whether it really sounded better, if you wanted the "best" release of an album you would have to buy it.

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
In the battle between SACD and DVD-A, the winner was... the iPod.

SACD is still available and supported by some enthusiasts. DVD-A is not. Clearly it is not exactly a VHS vs. Beta thing since, as you say, the iPod is the real winner, but I'm wondering what legs the SACD enthusiasts are standing on at this point.


Actually, DVD-A is still available.  All the King Crimson 5.1 remasters (one set released last year, another set due out this year) are DVD-A, for example.

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #38 –
Quote from: onlyconnect on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: onlyconnect on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
What went wrong?


Nothing went wrong, except that it is not testing the right thing!

That said, I found the hardest thing about setting up the test was matching the volume.



Really? How so? How did you try to do it?


I didn't "try" to do it, I did do it :-)

So for this test we want the cleanest possible path for the SACD or DVDA output to give it the best result. And we want the same output with a 16/44 ADC -> DAC step inserted.

My high-res player has two analog outputs for the left and right channels (ie two of each), which is a help.

I first disabled bass management etc in the player for the most direct output.

Then I wired up the direct output to my amp, which I switched to "pure direct" mode to disable video and EQ.

Next I wired my ADC to receive the analogue input and output it as 16/44. I connected this to a digital input on the amp.

Now I can switch between the two by changing the input selector on the amp. However, I do not want to have to adjust the main volume control on the amp when switching as this is error-prone and time-consuming. So I have to match the volume when switched. The easiest way to do this is by adjusting the the volume of the A/D conversion though I appreciate that it should not be too low otherwise I am not using all the available bits.

However, even at max the volume from the ADC is less than that direct from the SACD player on loud tracks. I got round this by only testing on quieter tracks :-)

You could get round this by using different equipment, or by using an external DAC with gain and sending an analogue signal to the amp matched to the volume of the SACD. It is all extra boxes though and you begin to wonder what you are testing.

Note that I do this for my own amusement/information and I am not pretending to match the rigour of a scientific listening test.



The way we  level-matched equipment is put an external attenuator in series with the loudest item.  Keep the cables between the output of the attenuator and the next component in the chain short, and the attenuator will not add or subtract anything but the excess loudness.  I built my own out of 5 K ohm potentiometers, one for each channel.

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Notat on
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
In the battle between SACD and DVD-A, the winner was... the iPod.

SACD is still available and supported by some enthusiasts. DVD-A is not. Clearly it is not exactly a VHS vs. Beta thing since, as you say, the iPod is the real winner, but I'm wondering what legs the SACD enthusiasts are standing on at this point.


I purchased King Crimson DVDAs this year, and you can still buy DVD-A capable players.

Tim

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #40 –
Interesting - support for the idea that DSD is coloured from a surprising (to me) source:

http://www.2l.no/

[blockquote]At venue recording sessions our analogue to digital converters can do both the one-bit DSD and the multi-bit PCM formats. We can also listen directly to the analogue output from the microphones. Digital eXtreme Definition is a professional audio format that brings “analogue” qualities in 24 bit at 352.8 kHz sampling rate. DXD preserves 8.4672 Mbit/s (3 times the data of DSD) per channel. This leaves headroom for editing and balancing before quantizing to DSD for SACD or PCM for Blu-Ray.
All audio formats on The Nordic Sound are sample rate converted from the same DXD master. Comparing them in our studio we find only subtle differences from DXD down to 192kHz and 96kHz. The obvious degeneration is from 96kHz down to 48kHz. We find DSD, as used in the SACD format, somewhat different in colour from PCM; in some mysterious way DSD is softer and more beautiful but slightly less detailed. In DXD we find the shimmering brilliance from the original analogue source as directly from the microphones. Linear PCM is offered in addition to DTS HD Master Audio on this Blu-ray with the purpose of convincing audiophiles of the true lossless qualities of commercial encoding. The stereo layer of the SACD and the LPCM 2.0-stream on the Blu-ray are both full resolution mix from the original microphones. Mostly we find that the microphone placements used for the surround make a fine stereo. Occasionally we put up extra microphones dedicated for the stereo stream.
I personally prefer extremely high resolution PCM over the DSD and I would claim that DSD is not transparent. But it all comes down to what the sound from your speakers can do to your body and mind. I find that the placement of microphones has an infinite more important role in the final experience of music, than the difference between HiRes PCM and DSD. Sometimes a lie can be more beautiful than the truth![/blockquote]

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #41 –
Considering that they claim to have heard "subtle differences" when converting from 352.8 kHz to 192 or 96 kHz, I'd take their opinions with a grain of salt (I.E. it's complete bovine feces.)

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #42 –
Quote
We find DSD, as used in the SACD format, somewhat different in colour from PCM; in some mysterious way DSD is softer and more beautiful but slightly less detailed. In DXD we find the shimmering brilliance from the original analogue source as directly from the microphones.
So, you thought an account containing stuff like this was worthy of being posted? It’s the same old vague, poetically romanticised garbage.

Quote
I personally prefer extremely high resolution PCM over the DSD and I would claim that DSD is not transparent.
S/he could easily objectively test that wholly unfounded claim!

Amusing that the passage ends with this:
Quote
Sometimes a lie can be more beautiful than the truth!
Whatever you need to tell yourself, I guess.
 

Might SACD or DSD slightly colour the sound?

Reply #43 –
Nice to see a robust response here :-)

Tim