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Topic: Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity? (Read 7550 times) previous topic - next topic
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Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Facepalm alert!  Extreme audiophoolery ahead.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=228233


Quote
coffecupman wrote:

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?
Hey all,

As an audiophile, I have to question everything in order to stay at the top of the game.

I'm preparing to rip my CDs to take them with me when I work at sea, and eventually to use them on a hi-rez server at the house.

I only want to do this one, last time

So I have bought the Plextor 230 Premium, and I'm working on a high class external case for it. I'll be power conditioning, vibration isolating, CD polishing, demagging with the Acoustic Revive unit, ripping at 1:1 speed. I'll be doing everything I can.

So here's what I'm thinking about Accuraterip - I just want to bounce this off of some audio minds here...

- I don't believe all drives are created equal. Just like CD transports aren't created equal. If one understands that transport quality dramatically affects data retrieval at 1X, how can we expect "bit perfect" performance from a $20 drive spinning in a vibration box, bombarded from all sides by electric fields, spinning at 52 times that speed? Does that sound realistic?

(and yes, the fields can very probably have an effect. Since the output from the laser is an electrical signal that is essentially analog until digitized).

Anyway, let's just say I believe these things matter, and that how you rip will affect the sound of the resulting files.

- The way I'm reading it, all Accuraterip does is tell you that your rip is the same as a whole lot of other people, probably using the usual $20-$30 solutions, within case, probably at high speed.

- ...if one thinks that this is not a good solution for ripping, shouldn't you be HAPPY to see your results differ from a standard rip? Shouldn't you jump for joy when you see all your tracks fail Accuraterip? (provided of course the results SOUND better to you when played back through your DAC, of course, which I believe they should.)

What I'm getting at is, what is the value of a test for "perfection" that just tells you you got the same as most other people, using average ripping methods? This doesn't sound like the best solution to me.

- Even the dbpoweramp people, when they made their own ripNAS dedicated external ripper, admit that they auditioned all the high end drives and selected one for its superior performance. Conclusion: Even the dbpoweramp people believe drives are not created equal...

...but PROBLEM: How do they determine what the best drives are? They are using Accuraterip as a reference. Isn't this backwards? Aren't they, by definition, detecting the most "consistently average" drives on the planet? I realize that this is something of a crazy discussion, but we're having fun I hope

If there was a "wildman drive" out there that just got more data off a disc than had ever been resolved before, wouldn't it fail the Accuraterip test completely? Because its competition couldn't duplicate its results?

I can't help but think the Plextor premium is a pretty good drive. Everyone says so.

I'm also going to try using a Blu-ray burner to rip CDs. The "Blu-spec" concept in reverse!!! - More articulate laser, cleaner results. But then again, DVD drives should then outperform the CD stalwarts, and the model that's on a pedestal is still the Plextor 230, which is a CD only 52X drive, with one of them big ol' clumsy CD lasers in it!

Conflicting information everywhere you turn. People on the warpath to defend bit perfection, who have never heard exotic quality CD transport playback. It's a jungle out there.

I'd love to hear from someone who has really taken this process to the extremes, and has something constructive to report. I'll go as crazy as it takes to get the results the best they can be. That's my idea of the hobby, anyway.

If you want to say there's no point, that even cheesy drives give you bit perfection, save your fingers. I don't believe you and you aren't gonna convince me

have a great weekend,

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #1 –
People believe what they want to believe, ripping at x1 with a 230A he will have more errors results than at full speed.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: spoon on
People believe what they want to believe, ripping at x1 with a 230A he will have more errors results than at full speed.

Which he will then interpret as being "better" than what everyone else got on their run-of-the-mill drives.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: spoon on
People believe what they want to believe, ripping at x1 with a 230A he will have more errors results than at full speed.


It is interesting that you say that. I have always wondered whether going too low would hurt instead of help. Especially regarding re-rip speeds for spurious sectors in dBpa: Is there some minimum speed, that could be recommended for most modern drives, below which no improvements should be expected?

That interests me more than pitiful guys in identity crisis trying to cure themselves by possession of non-average items...

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #4 –
Quote
If you want to say there's no point, that even cheesy drives give you bit perfection, save your fingers.

You'd love to hear opinions, but only if others agree with you? Way to go!

I read the linked topic (fast) and it's full of incredible crap (from certain users) and I can't make out who's trolling and who's not.  Entertaining.. and a bit aggravating.

Same dude who started the topic in there:
Quote
I'm not going to call myself super-eared. But, you know, people told me it would take golden ears to hear differences in interconnects and power cords, and I sure hear those.


Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #5 –
<rant>Unfortunately, there are far too many people like this. This is the very reason why I find it so hard to believe in the power of democracy...</rant>

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #6 –
Basically he says: "Everyone else is delusional (using Accuraterip) and only I´m sane (for aiming at differing results)"

Psychologically one could say that HE´s the delusional one.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #7 –
Pretty much, he really rates $$$$ with quality, and cannot believe a $$ DVD drive is any good because they are so cheap. If you sold a $1000 DVD drive he would be first in the queue.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: googlebot on
Is there some minimum speed, that could be recommended for most modern drives, below which no improvements should be expected?

I don't think you can make such a generalization.  Some drives do a better job ripping slowly, others ripping quickly.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #9 –
Jonny Greenwood on audiophiles:

Quote
No. That comes later. It’s those thirty-something men who lurk in hi-fi shops, discussing signal purity and oxygen-free cables and FLACs. I should know—I was very nearly one of them.


Source.
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: The Seeker on
Jonny Greenwood on audiophiles:

I think he's quite representative for the pragmatic artist's standpoint, concerned about the music itself and not much about its technical aspects. While this is likeable standpoint, it's somewhat ignorant too. He confuses FLAC with audiophile snake-oil and speaks of MP3 as something monolithic, which sounds fine to him, but generally worse than CD and even vinyl... after all, not everyone who demands quality audio is an aged audiophile who has too much money to burn (I guess it would be easier for me to find satisfactory headphones if I where older).

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #11 –
dunno where to start, but I'll go out on a limb here and dare to say that the originally quoted poster (coffecupman) is just scared to hell, that his high quality cd drive (please note his scientific approach: "I can't help but think the Plextor premium is a pretty good drive. Everyone says so.") might come up with exactly the same (bit-perfect) results as the next best standard cheap off the shelves drive produces.

In his universe, this just cannot be right, because he paid more $$$$ for getting higher quality.

Therefore, he is condemned to question the accuracy of the accurate rip principle of using check sums for verification of digital data.

Anybody got some spare hands for a quadruple facepalm ?

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #12 –
My trolling detector isn't very reliable, but it flagged this part:

Quote
So I have bought the Plextor 230 Premium,


Does this exist? I.e., was the Premium anywhere badged with the "230" number, or was any of the 230's anywhere badged as "Premium"?


(He can buy my vintage SCSI controller cards if he wants something less "mediocre"  )

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #13 –
Facepalm indeed. That was my reaction to this:
Quote
I don't believe you and you aren't gonna convince me
The mantra of the (woo-loving) moron. Was anyone else reminded of magnets? "I don't wanna talk to no scientist!"

Apparently the word of unqualified charlatans is preferable to that of people who possess at least a vague idea of how to evaluate and provide evidence for claims. I guess science doesn't provide sufficient amounts of snappy soundbites / righteous indignation.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Porcus on
My trolling detector isn't very reliable, but it flagged this part:

Quote
So I have bought the Plextor 230 Premium,


Does this exist? I.e., was the Premium anywhere badged with the "230" number, or was any of the 230's anywhere badged as "Premium"?


(He can buy my vintage SCSI controller cards if he wants something less "mediocre"  )



AFAIK the only official drive from Plextor carrying the number 230 is the 230a, which is not sold as "Premium" edition. The 230a itself is a rebadged BenQ. So I think the "230 Premium" is either a creation of his or his dealer's fantasy (who might have added a plastic sticker inside for "quantum jitter correction" to make it premium).

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: dv1989 on
Apparently the word of unqualified charlatans is preferable to that of people who possess at least a vague idea of how to evaluate and provide evidence for claims. I guess science doesn't provide sufficient amounts of snappy soundbites / righteous indignation.

For most people, "Hi-fi" is more fun than science.

For Johnny Greenwood, music is more fun than either Hi-Fi or science.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #16 –
If we weren't so sure that accurate ripping is possible, we would still have a methodology to demonstrate it:

.WAV -> Burn as CD audio -> Rip with a proper ripper -> bit for bit identical.  Sure the bits cannot be rounder or nicer. They are the same or they aren't.

But I'm sure a strong audiofool would still insist that it is bit for bit identical, because it was of less quality to start with. 

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #17 –
Physically bits on a CD aren't really only bits. Groove width and geometry vary slightly, for example, between an original CD and a burned copy. These differences are real and can be measured with regular drives, but they still do not deliver different bitstreams to the DAC. Commercial copy protection systems for data CDs and DVDs exploit this. Because of that perfectly undetectable copies aren't possible anymore, the physical structure of a ripped disk has to be emulated. If you want to enjoy a little hysteria, drop this info at some of those sites. You would surely find people convinced that MDF/MDS images sound much purer than regular FLAC files. 

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #18 –
I see this merely as somebody changing reality to fit their preconceived notion of it, which is of course a behavior not in short supply in this world. He's already bought into demagging/vibration isolation/power conditioning, which requires suspension in the belief of a great deal of science/engineering in order to justify on an objective basis. So it's not much of a stretch at all to go from there to saying "my drive MUST be good, so if it's failing AR, everybody else must be in cuckoo land".

I must say though, looking quickly over that SH.tv thread, several people tried to (rightfully) thrash coffeecup around a bit, which is nice to see.

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #19 –
Just a quote from the topic @ stevehoffman.tv
Quote
my whole point is, if you're using conventional "error detection" tools, how would you even KNOW if you had a sub-optimal rip


As I am not registered on that forum, will someone PLEASE explain this dood the RED Book standard? That instead of 8 bit/byte, there is 14 bit /byte on the CD to allow for error detection (which has nothing to do with AccurateRip) and error correction. Thanks to this the theoretical chance of error is lowered form 10E-05 to 10E-12?
Surely, be there ANY kind of error correction, it can still happen, that a "mediocre" (or any other, even the plextor) drive will read the 14 bits so, that the byte will seem totally legitimate (ECC and checksum wise) yet will resolve into a different information than originally written. As noted, the chance of this is 10E-12.

But let's assume that the mediocre drive(s) reads the byte incorrectly and *does not* detect the error. Statistically, such error will turn up every 10E12 bits. That is approx 10E11 bytes. Which in turn is ~100GBytes. So at every 100Gbytes I will get 1 incorrect bit. 1 bit in 6 and a half day of music (stereo, uncompressed 16 bit WAV@44.1Khz). Given the sampling rate and the quantization I really, i mean I REALLY doubt that he will hear the difference. Even if it was the most significant bit in the byte.  But thinking about it, even I have experienced more failed rips (pops, clicks) than 1E-12. So the drives must give away data no matter what, if it's CD-A. If it's a DATA Cd, then it rather raises a CRC error and stop reading... But ok, that was the case of a single isolated drive.

Now let's imagine, that in order for the AccurateRip DB to show a track as legitimate, all different mediocre drives must read that single given bit with error (with the same error, that is), albeit there are hundreds of drives. The chance of this is ... well you calculate. It must be hell of a coincidence, when different drive models read the same sector with the same error. Over and over again... Even the same drive models, because the laser, and the D/A are, as noted analogue circuits.

Heck, I did not take coffecup's advice and did not save my fingers, but at least i proved it to myself, that the guy's hypotesis does not stand a case. Hurray

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Matyas on
As I am not registered on that forum, will someone PLEASE explain this dood the RED Book standard? That instead of 8 bit/byte, there is 14 bit /byte on the CD to allow for error detection

This is not correct.  EFM (pits and lands are not bits, BTW) comes before and is separate from CIRC.

Quote from: Matyas on
10E-12

Link please?
 

Accuraterip - Just a confirmation of mediocrity?

Reply #21 –
@Greynol: you're right. It's not a bit. We at the uni called it "binit", or a technical bit, which is definitely not a bit of real information.
The error rates have been taken from this article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HP...v41/ai_9683351/