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Topic: Any court cases for ripping CDs? (Read 12377 times) previous topic - next topic
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Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #25 –
Quote from: plnelson on
Quote from: yada on

I dunno about you, but I sure wouldn't give up ownership of a real CD for a buck and that isn't even a real buck, its only a trade-in buck for another cd! LOL  . Paying $5 and then getting only a buck for it on resale is just financially stupid. Besides anybody who had ever done any ripping knows that sh*t happens and for one reason or another and you will need that CD to re-rip down the road. Then you'll pay the $5 all over again to re-buy it and when you factor in the $4 loss you took on the re-sale, you just spent $9 bucks for it.  Geez, just keep it if all your'e going to get is a buck. I could go on an on...oh ya, I guess I already have...


I keep all my used CD's, incase I someday want to encode them to some better format.  But according to the clerk I mentioned that's not what many people do.  And your math is wrong - it only comes out to $9 if you only do it twice, but if you do it over and over and over again ,like lots of people do, it gets closer and closer to $4.    If the CD's in question have more than 3 or 4 songs that you like it's cheaper than iTunes AND you have no DRM or 128K issues.  So I can see the logic of it.

WRT "Besides anybody who had ever done any ripping knows that sh*t happens and for one reason or another and you will need that CD to re-rip down the road" I'm not sure what kind of sh*t you're referring to, but bits don't rot; if it's a good rip to start with why would you need to re-rip it?  (assuming you back everything up)    Millions of people buy songs on iTunes and they can't re-rip those.


Bits don't rot but hard drives fail and CD and DVD media have not exactly proven highly reliable.

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Danimal on
Bits don't rot but hard drives fail and CD and DVD media have not exactly proven highly reliable.


That's why people do backups.  We have a 300GB NAS where we keep our MP3's and other shared files for various PC's on our network.  It gets backedup up locally every night to an attached external HD.  In addition, it and my studio PC get backed up to another USB HD which is one of three in a rotation, rotated offsite.  Furthermore, critical files get written to DVD's and stored in a bank safe-deposit box.

So that means we have multiple onsite and offsite backups for everything.  So if we had a fire or theft our CD collection would be lost but our music would be safe.

It always amazes me how lackadaisical people are WRT backups.    I troll the Apple itunes/iPod support forum and practically every day somebody writes in complaining that they had their entire 16-zillion-song music collection =only= on their 80G iPod and it crashed/was stolen/got eaten by the dog/was spirited away by space aliens/ etc and now what should they do?

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: footballking3420 on
I have never heard of a court case being held due to somebody ripping a CD. Ripping the CD by itself is legal (to my knowledge at least) because it's still technically for personal use only. What you do with it after it's on your computer is another thing. That's usually where things start getting illegal.

Quote
You buy the CD. You own it. You (and a limited set of people you personally know) can do whatever you want with it. That's the rule of thumb around the world.


Really you don't own the CD, but the license to listen to the CD under certain conditions. While you can do whatever you want with it, not everything you do with it will be legal.


Do you sign a contract for this license? A CD is not like software, no CD I have purchased has ever even had the "contract seal" that software has - which is of limited legal merit itself. I am no lawyer, but I believe you do in fact own the CD, but there are legal limits to what you can do with the copyrighted contents of the CD.

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #28 –
From what I've gleaned, buying a CD (used or not), ripping a copy for yourself, and then selling the ORIGINAL, is not *literally* illegal in the US, because the current US laws that apply only say that 1) it's legal to resell a sound recording you bought  and 2) it's legal to make a copy of a sound recording you bought, as long as it's for your own use, and 3) it's illegal to sell a *copy* you make, of a sound recording you bought.  Really, these date from the VHS/cassette tape era, when copies were anything but 'bit-perfect', and technology has outstripped the law.  I don't doubt for a second that if a case ever DID come to trial, the law would be amended to explictly make selling the original illegal (if you retain a copy).  But as things stands, there are loopholes one could exploit if you're determined to cheat.

I keep all the CDs I rip, not because I'm a paragon of virtue, but because they serve as a my hard-copy , last resort 'backup archive' if by horrible coincidence all three copies of my digital archive go kablooey at once.  I also like having the booklets.

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #29 –
Quote from: plnelson on
It always amazes me how lackadaisical people are WRT backups.    I troll the Apple itunes/iPod support forum and practically every day somebody writes in complaining that they had their entire 16-zillion-song music collection =only= on their 80G iPod and it crashed/was stolen/got eaten by the dog/was spirited away by space aliens/ etc and now what should they do?
Even more amazing is when they laugh off the need to backup their collection when you suggest that they do. Until their HDD crashes and all their music evaporates. It's pretty sad.
EAC>1)fb2k>LAME3.99 -V 0 --vbr-new>WMP12 2)MAC-Extra High

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #30 –
Quote from: plnelson on
So if we had a fire or theft our CD collection would be lost but our music would be safe.

...then the music is not technically yours anymore. I assume that the "license" to music, is bound to the physical media.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #31 –
I don't know whether or not there have been any court cases regarding ripping borrowed CD's.  I just wanted to take the time to mention a few things we should keep in mind when we discuss these issues.

This would be a civil case in the US.  If the defendant chooses a trial by jury, then it is really up to 12 people to decide what we can and can't do with the CD's we own, as well as borrowed ones.  So it seems to me the real question here should be:  do you think that 7 of 12 people would think you are depriving the record industry of income by ripping your own CD collection?  I think you would have a hard time finding those 7 people.  Even if you lost that case, what would the damages be?  There is no monetary value the industry could show they've lost because of what you've done.

On the other hand, it would be a lot easier to find 7 people who think that copying every CD from the library and every friend you have is unethical.  It would also be very easy for the industry to put a value on their loss.

I do agree that our legal system is screwed up, but we don't have a gestapo here.  A whole boatload of stupid judges, stupid lawyers and stupid legislators but no gestapo.  Our system may indeed be crazy, but it's still fairly predictable.  One other advantage we have is that it's slow:  we may all be long buried before they figure any of this out; or the industry will be more worried about the chips we have implanted in our brains by then.  Either way I'll still take our system over yours any day of the week.

In short, if you look at your music library and think about how much money you've saved then you're probably breaking the rules.

Happy listening - MD

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #32 –
Quote from: odyssey on
Quote from: plnelson on

So if we had a fire or theft our CD collection would be lost but our music would be safe.

...then the music is not technically yours anymore. I assume that the "license" to music, is bound to the physical media.

I don't know if that's a valid assumption.  As I said above, there's no place in the statutes that spell that out, so unless it's been brought to trial, preferably in a federal district court or before the Supremes, NONE of us have any basis for making assumptions about it.  And certainly no one here has cited one single shred of precedent or case law that's directly applicable.

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #33 –
Quote from: MonsterDog on
This would be a civil case in the US.  If the defendant chooses a trial by jury, then it is really up to 12 people to decide what we can and can't do with the CD's we own, as well as borrowed ones.  So it seems to me the real question here should be:  do you think that 7 of 12 people would think you are depriving the record industry of income by ripping your own CD collection?  I think you would have a hard time finding those 7 people.  Even if you lost that case, what would the damages be?  There is no monetary value the industry could show they've lost because of what you've done.

Have you ever actually been on a jury?!  In the US it would be up to the jury to decide whatever the judge charges them with deciding - the jury doesn't get to pick the point of debate.  The judge may tell them that they have to decide the whole things based on some obscure detail of the statute.  What the jury thinks is "ethical" has no relevance - they will be asked to decide whether the defendant did or did not do some particular thing, based soley on the evidence presented.    I don't know what country you're from but that's how jury trials work in the US.

Also, finding a jury or winning or losing the trial is completely irrelevant, except to provide future case law.  The way it usually works when big companies sue little people is you lose if the record company even files a suit, because of the financial cost of having to retain counsel and defend yourself.

That's why I asked if that ever happened.    No one here has cited any instances but I don't know if that's because there aren't any or because people here are ignorant of them.    Speaking as a photographer who works with models (think: releases, contracts) and as a published writer and artist with registered copyrights I think it's a good idea to at least be AWARE of statutory and case law that's relevant to what we do.
 

Any court cases for ripping CDs?

Reply #34 –
Quote from: plnelson on
Quote from: MonsterDog on
This would be a civil case in the US.  If the defendant chooses a trial by jury, then it is really up to 12 people to decide what we can and can't do with the CD's we own, as well as borrowed ones.  So it seems to me the real question here should be:  do you think that 7 of 12 people would think you are depriving the record industry of income by ripping your own CD collection?  I think you would have a hard time finding those 7 people.  Even if you lost that case, what would the damages be?  There is no monetary value the industry could show they've lost because of what you've done.

Have you ever actually been on a jury?!  In the US it would be up to the jury to decide whatever the judge charges them with deciding - the jury doesn't get to pick the point of debate.  The judge may tell them that they have to decide the whole things based on some obscure detail of the statute.  What the jury thinks is "ethical" has no relevance - they will be asked to decide whether the defendant did or did not do some particular thing, based soley on the evidence presented.    I don't know what country you're from but that's how jury trials work in the US.

Also, finding a jury or winning or losing the trial is completely irrelevant, except to provide future case law.  The way it usually works when big companies sue little people is you lose if the record company even files a suit, because of the financial cost of having to retain counsel and defend yourself.

That's why I asked if that ever happened.    No one here has cited any instances but I don't know if that's because there aren't any or because people here are ignorant of them.    Speaking as a photographer who works with models (think: releases, contracts) and as a published writer and artist with registered copyrights I think it's a good idea to at least be AWARE of statutory and case law that's relevant to what we do.


There are no court cases because (unlike as is the case with p2p networks) the RIAA has no legitimate way to figure out who is ripping cds in their homes. 

And if you think that juries routinely limit their deliberations to what the judge tells them to do I suggest you talk to some veteran judges or trial lawyers.