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Topic: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet) (Read 3470 times) previous topic - next topic
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Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

SYSTEM
Computer: Windows 7
Foobar2000: v1.3.10
CUE Tools: v2.1.5
EAC: v1.1
WD TV Media Player
       July 2014
       NTSC model number WDBYMN0000NBK
       Firmware: v1.03.07

BACKGROUND
  • I'm ripping my CD collection to Single FLAC file "Images + CUE Sheet" to my desktop hard drive using EAC.
  • Then, I'm using the WD TV Media Player to stream the FLAC files over local WiFi to my Television in another room in the house.
  • When viewing the single FLAC file image, the entire CD loads as one long track.
  • What I would prefer is to for the image file to contain Seek Points corresponding to the original Track Indexes as per the original CUE Sheet.

QUESTION(S)
  • Does "Embedded Cuesheet" imply that there will be seekpoints available during playback?
  • How to determine if the FLAC image contains the embedded cuesheet?
  • How to determine if the FLAC image contains seekpoints? (if #1 is false)
  • Is there a FLAC player I can use to test the seekpoints? (This will help determine if the WDTV player is at fault.)
  • Is there another CD Audio file format I can (or should) be using that allows "Seek Points"? (for playback purposes only, I'll still use FLAC for lossless archiving)

REFERENCE
Here is a Wikipedia article explaining WD TV Media Player.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD_TV#WD_TV_Media_Player_.28WD_TV_2nd_Gen.29


tags: embedded cuesheet, wdtv media player, seekpoints

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #1 –
What do you mean by the word "seekpoint"? I guess that it's something that is visible to a user, so he/she can navigate a track and jump to these "seekpoints"...

1) depends on a player
2) use metaflac --list image.flac. Also foobar2000 supports embedded cuesheets
3) FLAC image contains "seekpoints" if it contains cuesheet
4) you can use foobar2000
5) rip tracks to separate files.

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #2 –
Cuesheet FLACs need custom code for going to a specific track.  I don't know if FB provides seekpoints for a cuesheet, to the start of each track (easy enough to find out; someone will know for sure).

Still, the problem is metadata since all you get from EAC is one track's metadata (track #2), and this is where the custom code is needed.  I don't see how you can ever get a TV to do what you want from cuesheet FLACs.

Since that is what I wanted, I did this custom coding for myself, even making it so lyrics are available per-track.  The pic shows a EAC cuesheet FLAC in a custom player.
BANNED

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #3 –
Thank you for your insightful answers. I will attempt to clarify my inquiry...

1.
Quote from: 40th.com
What do you mean by the word "seekpoint"?
Let me try to explain what seekpoints are...

SEEKPOINTS: BACKGROUND
When you insert a CD disc into your (physical) Blu-ray player, on the screen of your TV you will see all the tracks numbered and titled as separate selections.

On the Bluray (physical) remote, there are buttons for playback:
  • Play
  • FFwd
  • FRewind
  • Skip-to-next-track
  • Skip-to-prev-track, etc.

When you push the FFwd button (single arrow), the cursor moves along the same track and the timer increments by seconds as it advances. When you push the Skip button (double arrows), the next track is selected and the timer resets to zero.

SEEKPOINTS: ANSWER
When you have a Single Image File, in the playback device you will see only ONE track that includes the content of all the otherwise individual tracks in one linear progression. In order to use the Skip button, you need to provide Seekpoints.

My original question is asking how to provide those seekpoints within the single image FLAC file.

SEEKPOINTS: REFERENCE
The term, "seekpoints," is referenced in the FLAC documentation, here: https://xiph.org/flac/documentation_tools_flac.html#flac_options_cuesheet

2.
Quote from: lvqcl
Cuesheet FLACs need custom code for going to a specific track. (... someone will know for sure.)
How do I find out how to implement this "custom" code? By custom code, are you referring to settings within the CUE Sheet, or are you suggesting I will need to checkout the FLAC source code and re-compile it?

3. Is there a method by which I can examine the CUE sheet that is embedded within the FLAC file? In other words, is there a FLAC VIEWER utility available? When I open the "image.flac" file in notepad++, it appears to be in a compiled format, the characters are not readable. The flac developers' site indicates it is written in C or C++. Is there a FLAC de-compiler, perhaps? (when I search for "flac decompiler, there are no direct hits.) Such a decompiler might be used to hack the code and insert the seekpoints I desire, without having to modify source code and recompile it.

Tags: recorded audio books, what are what is seekpoints, flac decompiler

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #4 –
I'm not sure that this isn't trolling.

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #5 –
Seems the issue is the media player does not support cuesheet so that means conversion to track based to support that device. I would suggest you use your PC with Foobar as your source. Foobar supports  FLAC image with embedded or separate cuesheet. Two UPnP plug-ins for Foobar might work for you. One plugin allows Foobar to output to UPnP renderer (your remote TV) or the UPnP plugin that makes Foobar the source. I use the later method with Foobar installed to a NUC and BubbleUPnP on my phone (control point) to select music and target etc. My library is FLAC image with external cuesheet and album art.

I also have a couple of older Patriot Box Office devices; very similar to your WD. I've never seen a firmware release for these that supports cuesheet. Hence the suggestion to look at using your PC and Foobar as source and if necessary, look at low power options like NUC or similar. For streaming duties (not necessarily HTPC), even the most basic/entry models should be adequate.

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #6 –
Thank you Kudabird and everyone for your great replies. I've been spending many hours looking up all the info I can about how all these tools and specifications work together. Last year, for my archiving DVD collection, I learned a great deal and found the right tools, iso files, WinX DVD, etc. But the audio space is a different knowledgebase altogether.

Here is what I found out about UPnP and turning your computer into a Media Server that streams to your TV:
http://Lifehacker.com/5803975/what-is-upnp-and-how-do-i-use-it-to-stream-media-to-my-tv

The PS3 Media Server may work with my Samsung TV:
http://ps3MediaServer.org/about/

XMBC is another option:
http://lifehacker.com/5536963/the-ultimate-start-to-finish-guide-to-your-xbmc-media-center

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Jerry9 on
I don't understand your reply to my post. Can you explain what you mean by Trolling? It sounds like you are suggesting that I am breaking the forum rules in some way. If so, please let me know so I can refrain from doing so. Or so I can pose my comments in a way that does not appear as such.
Well... first, for some reason you quoted me and 40th.com incorrectly: you wrote "Quote from: 40th.com" but it contains my words, and vice versa. Second, your post contains... quite strange statements...

Quote from: Jerry9 on
When you have a Single Image File, in the playback device you will see only ONE track that includes the content of all the otherwise individual tracks in one linear progression. In order to use the Skip button, you need to provide Seekpoints.

My original question is asking how to provide those seekpoints within the single image FLAC file.

SEEKPOINTS: REFERENCE
The term, "seekpoints," is referenced in the FLAC documentation, here: https://xiph.org/flac/documentation_tools_flac.html#flac_options_cuesheet
FLAC seekpoints have nothing to do with your description. They're just some technical information invisible to a user. They can't be used for navigation in a FLAC file.

Quote from: Jerry9 on
3. Is there a method by which I can examine the CUE sheet that is embedded within the FLAC file? In other words, is there a FLAC VIEWER utility available? When I open the "image.flac" file in notepad++, it appears to be in a compiled format, the characters are not readable. The flac developers' site indicates it is written in C or C++. Is there a FLAC de-compiler, perhaps? (when I search for "flac decompiler, there are no direct hits.) Such a decompiler might be used to hack the code and insert the seekpoints I desire, without having to modify source code and recompile it.
FLAC files don't contain any code. If you open a ZIP file in np++ you won't see text either, but it doesn't mean that you need "ZIP decompiler".
FLAC file contains only data. A player reads these data and interprets them. If your player (WDTV) doesn't support cuesheets then you need to modify this player. Or use something else.

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #8 –
@lvqcl - I do indeed see I made a mistake in quoting you and 40th.com's comments. My intention was to help identify who wrote what, but instead I obviously made it more confusing, sorry about that!

In all the technical forums that I post to, my intention is to contribute to the knowledgebase when I can, for people who might have similar questions.

People who visit this forum will have different levels of skill and experience. In my case, I "was" a newbie to audio ripping and CUE sheet editing software utilities and the file formats associated with them. On the other hand, I have a good background in computer systems and programming.

The way I posed my question about FLAC file decompiling may have seemed foolish to you, but it was part of my attempt to understand how to manipulate them. My search on the web for such information was not productive. That's why I asked the questions. After my post here, what I discovered last night was that an audio editor such as CDWave Audio Editor (by Milo Software) can be used to "split" a FLAC file into different track indexing locations.

FLAC Seekpoints
Regarding the term, "seekpoints," I now understand that the term is used for a specific purpose in the FLAC specification ("a seekpoint just maps a time offset to a byte offset in the stream." ref: HydrogenAudio) Finding the correct terminology requires a certain level of understanding of the technology. My postings in this forum have been intended to gain that understanding. My use of the term, "seekpoints," could perhaps be stated more accurately as "Track Index" markers, or "Splits." For example, when watching certain DVD's (recorded to my hard drive as .iso files), there are "section" markers that you can advance to by pressing the (>>) double arrow key on the remote. These "sections" are not new chapters or tracks, rather, they exist within the current chapter or track. In that context, I would refer to these locations as "seekpoints" or "seek points."

FLAC Specification
Regarding a FLAC file "viewer" or "decompiler": the FLAC specification tells us that there are structured elements (as with "data structures" in C or C++). These are called "Metadata Blocks" in the FLAC spec. "Each block contains a header followed by a body. The block header describes the type of the block body, its length in bytes, and specifies if the block was the last metadata block in a FLAC stream." ref: GoDoc - FLAC Structures Defined

My question about viewing FLAC code using a decompiler refers to being able to read these Metadata Blocks in a human readable format rather than binary. Notepad++ only views it in binary. I'm looking for a reader for FLAC similar to phpMyAdmin as is used for mySQL database (.sql) files.

MetaFlac Metadata Editor
A FLAC reader such as MetaFlac might be what I'm looking for. It's binary executable (software download) only runs on Linux, so I'll have to setup a linux box (or virtual machine) to try it out. (see also: MetaFlac man pages)

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #9 –
http://downloads.xiph.org/releases/flac/flac-1.3.1-win.zip contains both flac.exe and metaflac.exe, so there's no need to use linux.

You can open a console, type metaflac --list test.flac, and it will print information about all metadata blocks in test.flac file.

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Jerry9 on
In all the technical forums that I post to, my intention is to contribute to the knowledgebase when I can, for people who might have similar questions.

People who visit this forum will have different levels of skill and experience. In my case, I "was" a newbie to audio ripping and CUE sheet editing software utilities and the file formats associated with them. On the other hand, I have a good background in computer systems and programming.
I hope this wasn't your work...
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cue_sheet_%28computing%29&type=revision&diff=716202818&oldid=707762309
Based from what I read of the book from which the edit was directly copied, the edit appears to have nothing to do with the specific type of cue sheets described in the article.  Rather, it should have it's own dedicated topic in the event that it is warranted.

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #11 –
Hi Greynol - No, I did not contribute to that wiki article.

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #12 –
If your hardware doesn't support cue sheets, I'd recommend either not using cue sheets or buying other hardware ;)

In your case it sounds like you could just split the tracks into individual files easily enough to work around this problem. 
 

Re: Audio Playback w/ Seekpoints Needed (Re: Flack + Embedded CUE Sheet)

Reply #13 –
@Saratoga - Yes, individual track files would work and serve as the seek points. I realize that now. What I discovered by accident, however, is that my WD TV media player can read CUE Files! That is good because I can perform just one operation, ie, rip the CD with EAC ("Action > Copy Image + CUE Sheet,") and not have to spend extra time generating individual track files from the single image file (using fb2k.)

CUE SHEET SOLUTION FOR SEEK POINTS
Using the WD TV media player, I can browse (across the WiFi connection) to the Hard Drive where my Archive is stored and select the file, "Audio_Book_CD1.cue," for example. You won't see a menu of tracks (like you would if they were separate files), but you can use the (>>) "Next" track button to get to the next chapter. (note: You can't go to the "Previous" track, unfortunately. But it's good enough for now.) The track plays just as if it were a separate file, and the artist/album info (tags) is displayed in the progress bar on the screen (as long as you entered that information into the CUE file, most audio book tags are not available in the common databases such as FreeDB.org, for example.)