MP4 Mature Enough?

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MP4 Mature Enough?

2003-04-27 22:24:18

i'm a newbie and i've been looking for a better quality alternative to mp3. my #1 concern is that i don't want to encode and in the future realize that the format is obsolete or just a niche format. i read a lot of what was written here and it looks like mp4/aac is the future. i did some testing with nero and i was sold in terms of quality which is my #2 concern.

my question is, is it time to convert my collection to mp4 or should i wait? from what i've gathered the aac and mp4 format is finalized. and even if the mp4 container changes it would be easy to convert since the aac content would not be effected. but it looks like encoders have a long way to go. i see that there is major work being done in that area as opposed to mp3 encoders which have reached the point where improvements are relatively minor.

and just an off-topic question... i noticed that even when i encoded at the transcoding setting the bitrate was pretty low (~140kbps). is this normal and what bitrate is this comparable to with in mp3? i'm used to encoding my mp3's at the standard preset (vbr ~196kbps) and i want to keep my mp4's at least at that level of quality.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #1 – 2003-04-28 03:34:39

Based on your concerns, MP4/AAC is a very good choice.

It won't get outdated any time soon. Actually, it just started getting widespread attention (QuickTime, Nero) - would have happened before hadn't Dolby been so bitchy about licensing conditions.

There's already hardware player support for the format - what places in the restrict group composed by MP3 and WMA (and VQF, if you are feeling picky).

In current implementations, quality is very good - around 30% more effective than MP3, according to formal MPEG listening tests. (that's why AAC bitrates are usually quite smaller than their MP3 equivalents)

While low bitrate doesn't really shines yet (in available implementations), the implementation of SBR in AAC (AAC+) will theoretically produce the best encoder also for bitrates under 96kbps.

And AAC isn't really finalized, but new encoding tools are added in a backward-compatible way. No "format breaking" add-ons.

Good luck.

Regards;

Roberto.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #2 – 2003-04-28 03:48:00

i see. thanks.

what setting would you suggest for someone used to ~196kbps vbr mp3?

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #3 – 2003-04-28 03:48:38

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my question is, is it time to convert my collection to mp4 or should i wait?

If that means, converting it from MP3 to AAC/MP4, don't do it (see your #2 concern). Transcoding will always result in quality loss. About your #1 concern, it's safe to say that MP3 will never become obsolete. That's like saying that the ZIP format will become obsolete, just because there are better alternatives now. The sheer userbase and amount of MP3 files worldwide will ensure support for this format, probably for decades to come.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #4 – 2003-04-28 03:54:04

A few other factors which may be important to consider if you plan on encoding your entire collection:

1. Right now, as far as I know, none of the available AAC implementations support gapless encoding and playback of encoded files. There has been a paper written on how to address this solution, but again, as far as I know, this solution is not in usage yet.

2. The situation with tagging of AAC files is non-optimal at the moment. Menno (maintainer of FAAC/FAAD and audiocoding.com, and part of the Nero AAC team) has created created a nice method for tagging files, but at the moment I believe this is only supported in his Foobar2000 plugin. Whether or not this method will become widespread is uncertain as well I believe.

3. I believe there is also no available replaygain implementation for AAC at the moment either, though I've heard that DSPGuru (BeSweet author) is working on one.

In this regard, concerning the "niceties" of some other formats (Vorbis/MPC), AAC is not as mature. The situation will probably improve though.

As far as future-proofness is concerned, AAC is probably a good choice.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #5 – 2003-04-28 04:03:39

i meant that i plan on converting my cd collection.
the difference between zip and mp3 is that the former is lossless so it makes no difference even if there are better compression formats. you can easily switch between formats if you wish. but with lossy formats it seems at though i have to sacrifice compatibility with quality or vice-versa.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #6 – 2003-04-28 04:52:50

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3. I believe there is also no available replaygain implementation for AAC at the moment either, though I've heard that DSPGuru (BeSweet author) is working on one.

If this is true, then it's for sure that it won't be replaygain he'll implement but his own "lwing_gain" like he did with ogg vorbis.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #7 – 2003-04-28 05:11:21

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3. I believe there is also no available replaygain implementation for AAC at the moment either, though I've heard that DSPGuru (BeSweet author) is working on one.

I wouldn't consider this one a big issue, given that there are many other ways of doing what replaygain does on the player end rather than tying it to a particular metadata tagging format (see xmms-volnorm, for example). An advantage being that this method works for any audio type (wav, mp3, audio cd, whatever) as well.

Edit: some explanation -- xmms-volnorm computes the same sort of data as replaygain (peak RMS level) and stores it in a database file that is used for subsequent playbacks. basically what replaygain does, only in a player-specific database file instead of a format-specific metadata tag.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #8 – 2003-04-28 08:40:52

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1. Right now, as far as I know, none of the available AAC implementations support gapless encoding and playback of encoded files. There has been a paper written on how to address this solution, but again, as far as I know, this solution is not in usage yet.

You're sure about that? I got a lot of tracks from DJ albums encoded in AAC, and those I burned back onto CD sound pretty much gapless to me. I don't have silence parts at the beginning or end of decoded files.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #9 – 2003-04-28 08:57:01

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-Is AAC capable of Gapless playback?-......this will be handled by the Systems part of MPEG-4 and not by AAC itself. This part of the container format MP4 has been developed for these and other purposes, so that any kind of multimedia content (not only audio) can be streamed (i.e. without gaps, but with describing side information in a "layer") from A to B, independent of the individual connection or storage properties.

From what I understand.... AAC is not gapless (outside MP4 container), MP4 isn't right now either but it should be in the future....? please someone correct me if I am wrong.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #10 – 2003-04-28 12:03:43

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3. I believe there is also no available replaygain implementation for AAC at the moment either, though I've heard that DSPGuru (BeSweet author) is working on one.

I wouldn't consider this one a big issue, given that there are many other ways of doing what replaygain does on the player end rather than tying it to a particular metadata tagging format (see xmms-volnorm, for example).

It has been confirmed by several people here that ReplayGain works fine for MP4 files in foobar2000, and Dibrom knows this, too. So it would probably be the easiest thing for a ReplayGain addict to use this combination, also because there's no AAC hardware player available that would support ReplayGain, so there's absolutely no reason to moan about it.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #11 – 2003-04-28 12:08:13

Actually ReplayGain works quite well for AAC too in foobar2000 with latest foo_mp4, values are stored in APEv2 tags just like with MP3s.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #12 – 2003-04-28 12:22:02

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From what I understand.... AAC is not gapless (outside MP4 container), MP4 isn't right now either but it should be in the future....? please someone correct me if I am wrong.

Kind of, yes... As Tripwire confirmed, you can achieve a gapless playback with the right combination of player and plugins. He probably uses some kind of Winamp plugin for this. This is not "the real deal" though, because there is still a gap between the two files (as AAC uses fixed frame sizes), but if you're lucky and your music is suitable (no quiet classical pieces), it will probably work.

The next step would be to get rid of the empty space between two files, and Ivan recently mentioned an AES article where this problem for MP3 and AAC has been solved (by saving the information how many bits are silent, as far as I remember). It's not implemented yet, but maybe soon - the ToDo list seems to be quite long...

My remarks were addressed at the BIFS part of an MP4 container which no available encoder and/or player uses to its full extent at the moment. There you wouldn't even have several files e.g. for one opera act, but only one file with no gaps and all side informations (track indices, different tags, lyrics, text etc.) stored in a separate binary stream, comparable to the information stored on an audio CD.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #13 – 2003-04-28 16:54:47

On a sidenote ( i know its crazy, dont jump on me ) :

- we ( Toff ) recently were ( was ) playing a test AAC file from matroska, it had a WAV header ( Nic's AAC2WAV and his 'crappy beta' DSF )

- you'll be able put several AAC songs into one single matroska file and separate them by chapters, if the sampling rate, bitdepth etc. are the same, providing you with gapless playback for such a file. We also have the KaxBlockDuration element, that can be used for the last block of each file to limit the number of samples in it ( thats what Hans-Jürgen mentioned )

- the matroska library supports using replaygain for every audio track, irrespective of the codec that was used. Of course only those DirectShow based players that will support reading the replaygain tag from the DirectShow filter will support it, so WMP 6.4/7/8/9 wont be able to do, but certainly TCMP and hopefully Zoomplayer, BSPlayer, Radlight, etc. later ....

- a winamp plugin for matroska is hard to do, but hopefully feasible. I dont know about a foobar plugin, looking at Peter's shedule it will probably take some time, if ever ... we'll see

A crazy idea, i know, but look at it as a temporary solution maybe

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #14 – 2003-04-29 16:15:02

Hello,

But, is it possible to change the volume of an AAC file in a way similar to what MP3Gain does??

I'll only switch to AAC if there is "AACGain" or something similar. My iPod doesn't read ape tags and I've grown too accustomed to living without touching the volume control.

Replaygain information in APE tags is useless with an iPod

Ciao.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #15 – 2003-04-30 13:52:37

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But, is it possible to change the volume of an AAC file in a way similar to what MP3Gain does??

It surely is possible. DSPguru was working on a tool that did just that - I.E: function like MP3gain - for AAC files.

But he's been too busy lately with real life work...

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #16 – 2003-04-30 14:48:15

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As Tripwire confirmed, you can achieve a gapless playback with the right combination of player and plugins. He probably uses some kind of Winamp plugin for this.

No, actually I play MP4 files with foobar. Sounds gapless to me. I encoded several DJ albums from Fatboy Slim and co in MP4, and they play gapless.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #17 – 2003-04-30 17:24:39

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3. I believe there is also no available replaygain implementation for AAC at the moment either, though I've heard that DSPGuru (BeSweet author) is working on one.

I wouldn't consider this one a big issue, given that there are many other ways of doing what replaygain does on the player end rather than tying it to a particular metadata tagging format (see xmms-volnorm, for example).

It has been confirmed by several people here that ReplayGain works fine for MP4 files in foobar2000, and Dibrom knows this, too. So it would probably be the easiest thing for a ReplayGain addict to use this combination, also because there's no AAC hardware player available that would support ReplayGain, so there's absolutely no reason to moan about it.

"Moan about it"? "Replaygain addict"?

Sounds a little like you are taking my comments in this regard personally, or at the very least I get the sense that you think I'm trying to mislead people here.

Of course I know that replaygain works with AAC in foobar2000, but this is not because of support in AAC, this is because of player design conventions. I didn't attempt to overemphasize this, but I think the point should be made.

Probably the main issue that I was trying to illustrate, which I believe I stated quite clearly, is that as of now, AAC does not support a lot of the extra end-user related features that many people on these boards have come to expect from other formats.

Getting back to the "moaning", the very fact that there is no official (or even unofficial but widely supported) replaygain feature (and thus the cause of a lack of hardware support), is probably the very reason to make this point, contrary to what you seem to feel. FWIW, I made similar arguments about this regarding the unofficially supported vorbisgain stuff.

With AAC/MP4, the situation appears similar with tagging as well (though I could be wrong I suppose.. or maybe I'm just moaning again ). In the best case scenario that ID3 is the "accepted standard" (while Menno's new tagging system still appears to be maturing), it is still clearly inferior to what other formats are offering at this point.

Does any of this matter? Maybe, maybe not. But they are points to consider, and I think they are certainly relevant to the question of whether the format is mature enough to completely switch over to.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #18 – 2003-05-01 03:47:13

I tried searching this up but I'm not sure what gapless means. Also if I start encoding my music now to AAC with Nero; since there's no gapless methods now, do I need to reencode my music to AAC later on to take advantage of the gapless feature? Thx

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #19 – 2003-05-01 23:32:25

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I tried searching this up but I'm not sure what gapless means. Also if I start encoding my music now to AAC with Nero; since there's no gapless methods now, do I need to reencode my music to AAC later on to take advantage of the gapless feature? Thx

Gapless means that there is no gap between tracks. There are many albums that do not have gaps between tracks when played in the cd form. With formats like mp3 and aac, where there are specific frame sizes that they must conform to, they cannot in normal conditions play one encoded track after another without there being silent space in between, so you will often hear a pop or even a prolonged 2 second gap between each song, depending on your player. Well, you might as well encode now into aac if you are going to, as I don't believe AAC will ever have a gapless feature. When a gapless feature is added to one of the containers supporting AAC in the future (for instance MP4) hopefully all you will have to do is place all of your AAC encodes into that container format without re-encoding. But, it has been discussed previously on this board that gapless support MAY only be possible for future encodes once it is supported, because information from the encode itself will be needed to determine how to write the container.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #20 – 2003-05-24 10:43:06

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3. I believe there is also no available replaygain implementation for AAC at the moment either, though I've heard that DSPGuru (BeSweet author) is working on one.

If this is true, then it's for sure that it won't be replaygain he'll implement but his own "lwing_gain" like he did with ogg vorbis.

sorry tangent, you're wrong.
roberto iZ right.
it's just that i don't have much of free time like i used to have..

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #21 – 2003-06-01 22:12:40

ID3V2 is pretty heavily criticized for technical reasons, so I see no need to use it.

I am not aware of any downside to APEV2 tags. Is it too critical to ask we stop making more 'standards' and actually, well, use a ‘standard?’

Why in the world do we need this many tag 'standards?'

To sum it up, would all of you codec guys please give strong consideration to just using APEV2?

Thanks for your hard work,
David

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #22 – 2003-06-02 08:44:12

iTunes already has a tagging format which is based on a 'meta' atom in the MP4 file, and something inside which I don't know what is, but looks like atom properties. Ironically, they write these tags upon the creation of the MP4, but won't add them to existing files. If only libmp4v2 wasn't so complex, I could add support for it, but I asked for help over at the mpeg4ip forum.

Please don't release release a version of Nero which uses a tagging system incompatible with iTunes. Having the two popular MP4-encoders be incompatible will only lead to trouble and misunderstanding

If you're interested, I can supply a small file for reference.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #23 – 2003-06-03 10:14:59

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Please don't release release a version of Nero which uses a tagging system incompatible with iTunes. Having the two popular MP4-encoders be incompatible will only lead to trouble and misunderstanding

I am hoping they use something compatible as well. Only a month away till we know for sure I guess.

MP4 Mature Enough?

Reply #24 – 2003-06-03 13:46:16

Sorry for bringing this up again in the wrong thread, but I would consider the following before I did any lossy archive compression (such as re-ripping the whole cd collection):

1. How much time does it take me yo rip my whole cd collection and compress it to an appropriate lossy format? As fo my "secure" ripping setup, it takes about 15 minutes per cd (not taking in to account the mp3 compression and tagging of non-freedb data) = about a working week just for the ripping process.
2. Independent of wich format I choose, I'd be surprised if I didn't want to swith to other formats in the future, depending of what hardware/software that crosses my way. In other words - at some point I'd probably had to do the whole ripping process again and that is quite frustrating to realise at that point, isn't it?

Theese two factors leads me to three conclusions:
1. By a big new (perhaps external) HD.
2. Go lossless. FLAC has excellent tagging that is easy to copy when you are swithing to lossy formats.
3. Select the tracks/albums you would like to have on your portable/dvd/web server/laptop, a suitable lossy format and batch encode the whole thing. You can always do it again at a later time when you have other needs. Voila.

The cost of the big new HD will be greatly payed off since you will only have to do the ripping once. If FLAC gets outdated, which I doubt will habben anytime soon, just use a tool (such as todays dbPoweramp) to convert the whole collection to a new lossless format over the night. That's my recipe for everlasting audio peace

Chreers

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