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Topic: The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing (Read 7445 times) previous topic - next topic
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The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #26 –
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The truth is, there ARE differences between cables (sometimes audible, sometimes not) for instance.

Only very crappy or broken cables can cause audible differences in case of interconnects. In case of speakers, an appropiate section is enough to make dissapear all audible differences.

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Electrical engineers WOULD like to think of cables as pure resistors, ones with low resistance. But cables have capacitance and inductance characteristics too. Different frequencies of AC voltages result in different outcomes. Insultation from electromagnetic noise is of course a big difference in cables. Parallel conducting wires add noise to each other through crosstalk.


Electrical engineers know this, of course. That's why they are engineers, don't you think so? The thing is how important is the influence of all those parameters at audio frequencies and at cables intended use.

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I don't have very much experience in this area, I am still a student, but I certainly couldn't tell the difference between a Circuit City audio cable and a Vandersteen audio cable. Instead of saying in my previous post that it is pure BS, I think I should have said that it is not practical to invest money into expensive cables.


In question of cables, all exotic cable is BS, since cable physics is not complicated, and there's no magic in it.

The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #27 –
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Only very crappy or broken cables can cause audible differences in case of interconnects. In case of speakers, an appropiate section is enough to make dissapear all audible differences.

And not to mention, when putting things into the context of this thread, the negative effect "bad-quality wire" or wiring could possibly cause is no where near the problem of poor room acoustics.

I find it rather amusing that people are crying about wiring (not in this thread but in general) when their room acoustics alone totally rapes and ruins the music

Imagine; room acoustics can efficiently null some frequencies completely and cause variations of even 6 dB's all over the signal's frequency domain. Now what could a lousy wire possibly do that's even remotely comparable to that?

The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #28 –
Well, the point of my post was to discourage this kind of behavior. The physics isn't as simple as you think, it is just simplified all of the time, especially when it comes to electrical phenomena. 

Once you dive into electromagnetic field theory, physics isn't simple anymore. Cable capacitance, inductance and corsstalk for instance are NOT BS!!! They are measurable and their results are easily displayed with an good oscilloscope. They contriubute to distortion and given the proper cable lengths, they can lead to audible distortion - why is it so hard to believe that introduced electromagnetic noise can be audible? The point of my post was that in most cases these don't really make a difference in audio quality. But by no means are these physical qualities BS!

The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #29 –
Room acoustics considerations are of course very important. They are also the hardest to control - many times, there is no solution possible. Use fiberglass panels of the appropriate thickness to rid yourself of as many reflections as possible. Tilt your speakers inward toward the sweet spot. Put a bass tube in the corner (if you are willing to sacrifice some aesthetics) and pray for the best. Usually this is enough.

Sure, there are spots in the room where individual frequencies are completely dead. This is a bad thing, but there is not much you can do about that... sorry. I haven't had very many problems with room acoustics, my room seems very ideal for the speakers I built.

The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #30 –
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Once you dive into electromagnetic field theory, physics isn't simple anymore.

I know. I study computer science and physics. Actually, relativity/qed  is where physics isn't simple anymore, but let's not go into that now

I'm pretty well aware and fond of theoretical electrics (except esoteric appliances of Gauss's law but let's not go into that either), but I studied and pondered it at general level. I haven't performed a through case study on musical equipment as of yet. Nevertheless, I'm prepared to make an educated guess that the effect of phenomena related to electric and magnetic fields (including induction current) when considering speaker/interconnect wiring is at least some orders-of-magnitude lower than signal level, let alone that of speaker design and room acoustics. I reckon at least electromagnetic effects can be left totally out of consideration if using shielded (=coaxial) signal cable or in speaker cables, where the current levels are high.

Naturally if you're going to use kilometer of cable wrapped in a tight coil or set up a hifi system inside an electric locomotive or perhaps inside a power plant, things are a bit different

Edit:

Grammar and analogy

The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #31 –
niktheblak:

The post wasn't aimed at you. And yes, I was talking about cable lengths used in professional audio. I hope you realize, in the pro audio industry these are pretty serious problems. For instance, the project my company is working on right now requires many miles of audio cable...

The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #32 –
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The physics isn't as simple as you think, it is just simplified all of the time, especially when it comes to electrical phenomena. 

I think I know something about the physics. I'm an engineer myself (EE in some parts) , and have done some research for detailed information over cable interactions, just to be able to throw away BS. Many times cable interaction is simplified because the parts thrown away are not important. But I do know abouth those interactions, same as many regulars here, simply because it is not that difficult: resistance, inductance, capacitance, skin effect, interference pickup, crosstalk, transmission line effects (signal reflections), dielectric absorption, microphonics, thermal noise. I listed all ones I rememember right now, and I think there are no more real interactions. Some of those are related to some of the other ones. The four last ones are totally irrelevant at audio frequencies and audio levels. The others are not relevant at usual cable lenghts and intended use.

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Once you dive into electromagnetic field theory, physics isn't simple anymore. Cable capacitance, inductance and corsstalk for instance are NOT BS!!!


When did I say otherwise? All I said is that one has to quantify how much influence have those cable properties into actual sound, for human hearing, and for cable intended use.

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They are measurable and their results are easily displayed with an good oscilloscope. They contriubute to distortion and given the proper cable lengths, they can lead to audible distortion - why is it so hard to believe that introduced electromagnetic noise can be audible?


It is not hard to believe. But at usual lengths, it is very doubtful it will be audible. Interconnect noise pickup is below -95 dBFS at tests done at home wih my soundcards and a cheap 1 meter interconnect cable, very close to the computer. It is tough to measure, because the noise is at the limits of my soundcard recording capabilities.

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The point of my post was that in most cases these don't really make a difference in audio quality. But by no means are these physical qualities BS!


Again, read my post, I didn't say otherwise. But there's nothing in an expensive exotic cable that makes it different from a good inexpensive cable. And most times even a cheap stock cable (as long as it is not broken) is as good as anything you can buy, specially in case of interconnects. In case of speaker cable all you need is an appropiate cable thickness. The BS is at the explanations given from exotic cable manufacturers and audiophiles.
 

The (not so) wonderful world of equalizing

Reply #33 –
That's perfectly OK KikeG!

Thank you for your opinions!