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Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Hi,

I currently have my entire collection in wavpack at the moment.  Is there any reason i shouldn't transcode them all to ape?  I noticed it compresses better, and my space is rather limited.  thanks guys!

Jonathan

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #1
you might wanna take a look at that if you wanna decide whether you should encode your files to APE.

edit: also if you want to, you could use WavPack's optimizing switches to acheive a higher compression ratio. although the decoding will probably be slower than before.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #2
I suggest you keep your WavPack files, you could try to recompress them using the optimized switches if you want better compression ratios. IMO Monkey's has been losing steam scince a while back and support in foobar is now available separately, this could be a sign that Monkey's is going the way of MusePack.
we was young an' full of beans

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #3
I suggest you keep your WavPack files, you could try to recompress them using the optimized switches if you want better compression ratios. IMO Monkey's has been losing steam scince a while back and support in foobar is now available separately, this could be a sign that Monkey's is going the way of MusePack.


IMO its much harder to kill a lossless format and there has been some development by Matt this year. MA is still very efficient, although its now lagging in features.

Hi,

I currently have my entire collection in wavpack at the moment.  Is there any reason i shouldn't transcode them all to ape?  I noticed it compresses better, and my space is rather limited.  thanks guys!

Jonathan



Did you work out exactly how much space you will gain by doing all this ? It might just be easier to add more storage.
wavpack 4.8 -b3x6c

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #4
[deleted]

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #5
If higher compression is your goal why not going the OptimFROG way instead?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=371901

EDIT: Corrected link.
WavPack 5.1.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac 2.64 -V 100


Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #7
If higher compression is your goal why not going the OptimFROG way instead?

Hm, I recently went the other way round (from .ofr to .wv).
For about 10 % more storage I get more than 20 times the
encoding & decoding speed. The CPU fan now no longer howls when I play
files on the machine.
Another pro is the support out-of the-box for WavPack in foobar2000 9.x

Edit: Wrong Quote
Edit: Content correction

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #8
I used to reencode all my APE files from pre 3.99 versions to 3.99 high since at this compression level seeking in foobar2000 was instantaniously whereas older versions of MA gave me the same instantanious seeking only at lower compression rates.

Now I've switched to WavPack 4.31 -h, mostly for the gain in decompression speed (I do transcode a lot from my lossless files) and it's brighter future. As soon as 4.4x is final and tested I will experiment with it's new switches a little and then convert everything to this new version if it's worth it.

EDIT: spelling

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #9
Hi,

I currently have my entire collection in wavpack at the moment.  Is there any reason i shouldn't transcode them all to ape?  I noticed it compresses better, and my space is rather limited.  thanks guys!

Jonathan

I did a small test yesterday with one track (punk rock).
Config : Athlon XP 2000+ - 512 MB

Monkey's Audio 3.99

(encoding speed) (compression) (decoding speed)
* fast :  21.2x  74.6% 15.3x
* normal :  18.6x  73.8%  14.2x
* high :  17.4x    73.6%    13x
* extra high :  11.2x  73.3%  9.7x
* insane :  5.1x  73.2%  5x

WavPack 4.31

(encoding speed) (compression)(decoding speed)
* -f :  27x  76.7%  18x
* -fx :  4.7x  75.9%  18x
* (default) :  22.6x  75.2%  17.3x
* -x :  2.7x  74.8%  17.3x
* -h :  15.3x  74.3%  15.9x
* -hx :  1.2x  74.3%  15.9x

As you can see, with this track, Monkey's Audio is slower than WavPack (without -x switch) with both encoding and decoding speed, but MA achieves very better compression ratios, so if your goal is compression, go with Monkey's Audio (or maybe Optim Frog if you don't care about encoding and decoding speed). WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, error handling, hybrid mode..). And remember WavPack is still actively developed (4.4b2 has just been released this month and the -x switch is faster).

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #10
When I was in the lossless game I was pleaased to use Monkey extra high for archiving purposes because of the better compression ratio compared to FLAC and wavPack.
To me speed even with extra high was well in the acceptable range (mobile Athlon 2400+,  512 MB).
If speed counts sure high mode (or lower) is the better way to go.
I wouldn't  care about Monkey's further development as long as I get access to my archive. Worst case to me would be if I couldn't decode my chosen codec from within foobar. But even in this case I can still transcode with the older version before using the new one (or decide not to use the new one).

Another question is whether it's worth reencoding. The better compression ratio is not neglegible, but on the other hand it's not that much better that it were worth the pain to me. I'd rather stick with what I got, but continue with Monkey for further encodings.

As disc space seems to be your problem extremely high bitrate wavPack lossy might be an alternative.
If you use something like 512 kbps with wavPack lossy, well it's not exactly lossless, but should be so close that IMO it's worth taking into account. Compression ratio is remarkably better than that of Monkey or any other lossless codec in the vast majority of music.
lame3995o -Q1.7
opus --bitrate 140

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #11
... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...

The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?

Quote
... error handling ...

I like that a lossless decoder does not allow any errors. Then I can be sure that the decoded files are fine. A file error is always a serious problem either in HW or SW and should be dealt immediately. I know a couple of cases when erroneous Monkey's Audio playback has been a symptom of a bad memory chip or too tight BIOS settings that cause random memory errors.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #12
I know a couple of cases when erroneous Monkey's Audio playback has been a symptom of a bad memory chip or too tight BIOS settings that cause random memory errors.

This is why I decode and compare an ape file before blowing away the original wave, though I have yet to see a problem with 3.99 on my system.  I've also transcoded many flacs to apes for a considerable savings in disc space.  When doing this I'll check the checksum of the decompressed ape with that stored in the flac's metadata.  With a batch file, md5sum, sox and the build of mac.exe that handles piping, this goes pretty quickly.  I use the High setting, btw.  IMO anything higher is too slow for such a minimal gain in compression.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #13
... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...

The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?


I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia, it doesn't.  If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #14
...drum roll...
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #15
A file error is always a serious problem either in HW or SW and should be dealt immediately.


Wrong. It could also be the result of a CD scratch, or network problems, or several other issues. In that aspect, a format with error robustness is much better. If your Monkey's Audio file has one error, often the entire track from that point is lost. If it is a wavpack file, the decoding goes on, and a warning is displayed by the command line decoder.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #16

... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...

The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?
I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia, it doesn't.  If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.

Don't believe everything you read. I don't think Wavpack has any different RG support than Monkey's Audio has. Both formats can be analyzed and can have APE v.2 replay gain tags. Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that. I have used replay gain with my Monkey's Audio files for years.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #17
I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia, it doesn't.  If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.

...drum roll...

Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that.

...cymbal crash!
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #18


... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...

The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?
I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia, it doesn't.  If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.

Don't believe everything you read. I don't think Wavpack has any different RG support than Monkey's Audio has. Both formats can be analyzed and can have APE v.2 replay gain tags. Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that. I have used replay gain with my Monkey's Audio files for years.

I was not aware of that. Is there a way to do that without Foobar2000 (I'm a Winamp user) ? The official Monkey's Audio Winamp plugin doesn't seem to support RG.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #19
A file error is always a serious problem either in HW or SW and should be dealt immediately.


Wrong. It could also be the result of a CD scratch, or network problems, or several other issues. In that aspect, a format with error robustness is much better. If your Monkey's Audio file has one error, often the entire track from that point is lost. If it is a wavpack file, the decoding goes on, and a warning is displayed by the command line decoder.

You took that sentence out of the context.

I said I like that a lossless decoder does not allow errors. I have a separate lossy library for playback purposes.

What I did not say is that I use lossless for archiving only and I want to fix a possible file system problem / memory problem / software error / faulty storage media / etc before the error ends up to my backup archives. Before finding the cause of the error I cannot know if the problem is serious and if all other data is in danger too.

Your mileage may vary. For example, a working DJ certainly needs error robustness instead of zero tolerance.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #20
I was not aware of that. Is there a way to do that without Foobar2000 (I'm a Winamp user) ? The official Monkey's Audio Winamp plugin doesn't seem to support RG.

I don't know. The last time I used Winamp seriously was almost five years ago. At that time I had only wave and mp3 files. Is it correct to assume that this official plugin is made by Matt Ashland himself and comes with the Monkey's Audio package or is made by Nullsoft?

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #21
Is it correct to assume that this official plugin is made by Matt Ashland himself and comes with the Monkey's Audio package or is made by Nullsoft?

Yes, according to the about box : "Copyrighted © 2006-2006 Matthew T. Ashland". This plugin is bundled with the package that can be downloaded on the official MA website. Do you think there is an unofficial plugin for Winamp that supports RG ?

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #22

Is it correct to assume that this official plugin is made by Matt Ashland himself and comes with the Monkey's Audio package or is made by Nullsoft?

Yes, according to the about box : "Copyrighted © 2006-2006 Matthew T. Ashland". This plugin is bundled with the package that can be downloaded on the official MA website. Do you think there is an unofficial plugin for Winamp that supports RG ?

None listed on WA's website, the WavePack one does support RG tho...
WavPack 5.1.0 -b384hx6cmv / qaac 2.64 -V 100

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #23
What I did not say is that I use lossless for archiving only and I want to fix a possible file system problem / memory problem / software error / faulty storage media / etc before the error ends up to my backup archives.


Shit happens.

Quote
Your mileage may vary. For example, a working DJ certainly needs error robustness instead of zero tolerance.


Zero tolerance is idiotic no matter how you look at it. WavPack can also be considered "intolerant" since the command line decoder always warns about stream errors. But then it keeps decoding, so that you lose the least data. In Monkey's Audio case, besides outputting an error - not a warning - you lose lots of data.

Is there any reason to switch from WavPack to APE?

Reply #24
Don't believe everything you read. I don't think Wavpack has any different RG support than Monkey's Audio has. Both formats can be analyzed and can have APE v.2 replay gain tags. Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that. I have used replay gain with my Monkey's Audio files for years.


The difference between Monkey's Audio and WavPack, in this aspect, is that David Bryant officially endorses ReplayGain and he implemented it in the official tools. I think it's also mentioned in the documentation. Ashland never endorsed ReplayGain, it took Peter Pawlowski to hack it into the format. The outcome is that foobar is pretty much the only tool supporting replaygain on Monkey's. The winamp plugin doesn't support, the Audition filter doesn't support, the official decoder doesn't support, the XMMS plugin doesn't support, shntool doesn't support... that's why Wikipedia and the HA wiki list it as lacking RG support (well, someone recently messed - again - the HA wiki comparison, but I fixed it already)

If foobar support alone was enough, pretty much every codec could be considered RG-aware.

 
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