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Topic: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC (Read 5688 times) previous topic - next topic
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From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

I've tried Nick.C settings from his signature:

Code: [Select]
lossyWAV -q X -a 4 -s h -A --feedback 2 --limit 15848| FLAC -5 -e -p -b 512 -P=4096 -S-

And am really happy with the outcome.

However I only have HD sources so I need to convert them to 16/44.1 for lossyWAV.

I've used the following macOS native command for conversion:

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afconvert -d LEI16@44100 -f WAVE --src-complexity bats -r 127 <in> <out>

Resampler is best in class (bats) and I am not worried about that. What worries me is the 16-bit conversion (LEI16). Is it good enough? What about aliasing/dithering/clipping?

I have Homebrew on the machine and can easily install sox etc., is there some better way to go from 24/96 to 16/44.1? Should I even worry about such things? Is this good enough? I have no experience with sox. Any advice appreciated.

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #1
I've now figured lossyWAV does indeed support 24/96 input files. It just isn't optimized/tuned for it.

What would theoretically be better, converting/resampling to 16/44.1 first (which is lossyWAV optimized/tuned to handle best) or just using the source files directly?

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #2
Resampler is best in class (bats) and I am not worried about that. What worries me is the 16-bit conversion (LEI16). Is it good enough? What about aliasing/dithering/clipping?

Doesn't make a difference for aliasing, you can use dither (but it won't do much), and just resampling won't generally cause audible clipping unless the source is already clipped to hell to begin with (in which case it doesn't matter). 

Should I even worry about such things?

No, not worth it. 

What would theoretically be better, converting/resampling to 16/44.1 first (which is lossyWAV optimized/tuned to handle best) or just using the source files directly?

24/96 is fairly useless, but on the other hand hard disk space is pretty cheap.  Either are reasonable options, but I'd probably use 16/48 or 16/44.1k for compatibility since you're already going lossy. 

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #3
Thanks, that's reassuring.

Basically what I'm after is to have the best master available as a source to begin with, which is in this case mostly HDtracks 24/96 AIFF's.

I want to go from that to smallest lossy possible while getting the most out of the masters in the process.

So I'm trialing various options, from WavPack hybrid, Opus, lossyWAV, AAC etc.

lossyWAV is particularly interesting. I like the slow approach and development, from the MATLAB beginnings to this day. And having lossyFLAC as the end result is nice.

The plan is to delete the original HD sources and only leave the lossy versions, which is why it is very hard for me to decide on the long-term process.

Currently, the following is looking fairly tempting:

Code: [Select]
for f in *.aif; do afconvert -d LEI16@44100 -r 127 --src-complexity bats -f WAVE "$f"; done
for f in *.wav; do lossyWAV "$f" -q X -A -a 4 --feedback 2 --limit 15848 -s h; done
flac -P=4096 -b 512 -e -p *.lossy.wav

Size-wise it is very close to 256 AAC files that 'Master for iTunes' droplet spits out which is acceptable.

Might not be the best end result like some other possible options, but having it in de facto standard FLAC format (and everything that entails) is the best and most alluring part.

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #4
Downsample to 16/44.1, store as lossless flac and keep it.

Try a lossy format using that as a source. MP4/M4A ~192kbit will likely be your best bet.  It should provide enough margin to remain audibly transparent for all but extremely problematic samples. If you encounter any of those then you can always go back to the source.

Use the foobar2000 ABX plugin to guide you.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #5
Downsample to 16/44.1, store as lossless flac and keep it.

That might not be a bad idea, I haven't realized just how much smaller it is once downsampled.

E.g, with one song just tested, lossyFLAC is 7.8 MB (lowest extra portable setting) and pure FLAC is 18 MB which is not bad at all.

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #6
I wouldn’t bother with lossyflac, to be honest.  Reasons being inexpensive storage space for keeping downsampled, but otherwise lossless flac. M4A will be smaller than lossyflac and provide greater compatibility with players.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #7
So I've decided.

This is what I'm doing in the end:

Code: [Select]
for f in *.aif; do afconvert -d LEF32@44100 -f caff --soundcheck-generate --src-complexity bats -r 127 "$f"; done
for f in *.caf; do afconvert -d aac -f m4af -u vbrq 64 --soundcheck-read -q 127 -s 3 "$f"; done

It goes like this:

HDtracks 24/96 --> Intermediate 32-bit float@44.1 CAF file --> Apple TVBR q64 (~128 kbps).

Apple does 32-bit float conversion for its 24/96 studio master -> iTunes Store conversions, HA member ziemek.z also does it with sox (sox -e float -b 32 -V4 -D gain -3 rate -v 48000 norm -1) for his Opus encodes etc, so it must be something to it.

Was a close call vs Opus, but AAC is better supported and I get native ReplayGain (Apple Sound Check) with AAC.

Decided on TVBR even though CVBR might be better tested/tuned, but TVBR gives even smaller files and I can't ABX it anyway. I think it's even slightly smaller than Opus 128.

After this it goes in Picard with correct HDtracks album ID, tagged and then imported in iTunes, after which I delete both the HDtracks master and all other tmp/intermediates etc so that I am left with pristine TVBR q64.

Shockingly small files, shockingly good end result, good times all around!

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #8
I wouldn’t bother with lossyflac, to be honest.  Reasons being inexpensive storage space for keeping downsampled, but otherwise lossless flac. M4A will be smaller than lossyflac and provide greater compatibility with players.
lossyflac (-q -5) is flac at ~330kbps without psycoacoustic troubles.
what player (h/w or s/w) with copm. AAC not supports FLAC ?

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #9
You’re kidding, right?
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #10
Clearly he can't hear the fine tape hiss like artifacts of ADPCM, so maybe he would be even better served using that.

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #11
Just to be sure:
None of those "HD" tracks on sale in the relevant outlets, are floating-point?

(Artist-uploads might sometimes be, in which case I would assume the artist does not know the potential issues and has done nothing to safeguard against them. "Hopefully" proper music stores do things different, but they hirez stores are dogdammit already selling snake oil, so ...)
High Voltage socket-nose-avatar

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #12
Just to be sure:
None of those "HD" tracks on sale in the relevant outlets, are floating-point?

(Artist-uploads might sometimes be, in which case I would assume the artist does not know the potential issues and has done nothing to safeguard against them. "Hopefully" proper music stores do things different, but they hirez stores are dogdammit already selling snake oil, so ...)

They're not. I'm doing 32-bit float in the process of downsampling/resampling, and only for files that are >44.1. If they are 44.1 then I leave them alone, and only do intermediate CAF with sound check data in it.

Also, majority is snake oil, I'm in no delusions about 'HD' stores etc. It's just a simple thing of starting with the 'best' source, to be as close or exactly the same as actual studio master. I then do the best 'lo-fi' versions of them. It's what I call HDLF :)

To be even more clear, I delete the source masters after the conversion and am only left with TVBR q64 ~128 AAC files. So I am by no means a HD nut, I never play such files. But arguably it does have some merit/benefits in the studio recording/mastering stage, if nothing it gives more flexibility for the various stages of production/mastering/distribution.

Re: From 24/96 to 16/44.1 lossyWAV/lossyFLAC

Reply #13
Just an update (🖕Apple).

I now have all of my collection in lossyFLAC (Nick.C settings).

Everything is downsampled to 16/44.1 and converted to lossyWAV/lossyFLAC.

Library and playback in Audirvana Plus, with native ReplayGain and (Audirvana specific?) dynamic range tags.

For the life of me, can't ABX shit (NuForce uDAC & Grado SR80e), surprising result for extra portable setting.

LossyWAV/lossyFLAC for life. And Audirvana is a nice discovery, didn't know about it, a really nice player, just about right mix of features without going overblown.

 
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