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Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

When my post was ridiculed on Audio Asylum, I noted the following post: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1158857.html

The dude claims that I don't understand audio quality. Well, let's see.

My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003% over most of the power range (1W-95W), very low noise (The A-weighted noise of the power section is -113dB!), an excellent DAC, one resonant power supply per channel and well engineered thermal management.  So, for most practical sound levels the distortion of my amplifier+DAC system is below the threshold of hearing. My speakers are also quite accurate.

An then some dude with tube gear accuses ME of "living in a bubble when it comes to quality audio playback". That is beyond ridiculous.

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #1 –
Quote from: mmrkaic on
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say? Their views are irrelevant as is their forum.

When my post was ridiculed on Audio Asylum, I noted the following post

The dude claims that I don't understand audio quality.

An then some dude with tube gear accuses ME of "living in a bubble when it comes to quality audio playback". That is beyond ridiculous.
::)
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #2 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: mmrkaic on
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say? Their views are irrelevant as is their forum.

When my post was ridiculed on Audio Asylum, I noted the following post

The dude claims that I don't understand audio quality.

An then some dude with tube gear accuses ME of "living in a bubble when it comes to quality audio playback". That is beyond ridiculous.
::)


Yea, OK. I got miffed by their insults.

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #3 –
Quote from: mmrkaic on
My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003%
My speakers are also quite accurate.

Yea, OK. I got miffed by their insults.
Well don't embarrass yourself then. You don't prefer the sound of your stereo for either of those reasons, any more than the vinyl guys do for all that idiocy they come up with. Just go with you prefer the sound of your stereo playing digital vs vinyl. Don't "justify" it with nonsense.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #4 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: mmrkaic on
My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003%
My speakers are also quite accurate.

Yea, OK. I got miffed by their insults.
Well don't embarrass yourself then. You don't prefer the sound of your stereo for either of those reasons, any more than the vinyl guys do for all that idiocy they come up with. Just go with you prefer the sound of your stereo playing digital vs vinyl. Don't "justify" it with nonsense.


What are you talking about? I select audio systems based on measurements (i.e. good specs) and the quality of engineering. All good amplifiers sound the same anyway. You go for the best engineering and specs.

What you suggest is a subjectivist trap -- essentially saying that I should like a system because I like that system. No, I have a good reasons to like my system and laugh at subjectivists and those reasons are good specs and good engineering. Audio gear can be ranked and inferior audio gear does not measure well. It is that simple.

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #5 –
THD of less than 0.03% not good enough for you?

...and despite the erroneous belief one of our highly astute members has about this community, Sound quality is not determined through electrical measurements.

Yes, he did call you a Nazi, though it is clearly not "a reflexive (and rather dramatic) overreaction".  Then again if we manage to assume "an intonation that partially negates the actual words written" then it wouldn't be so bad.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #6 –
Quote from: greynol on
THD of less than 0.03% not good enough for you?

...and despite the erroneous belief one of our highly astute members has about this community, Sound quality is not determined through electrical measurements.

Yes, he did call you a Nazi, though it is clearly not "a reflexive (and rather dramatic) overreaction".

0.03% is 70dB below signal. It could not be enough in some cases. What subjectivists don’t get is that there is a certain elegance in good engineering and top level specs as well. It saddens me that some people here think like subjectivists.

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #7 –
Quote from: mmrkaic on
Quote from: greynol on
THD of less than 0.03% not good enough for you?

...and despite the erroneous belief one of our highly astute members has about this community, Sound quality is not determined through electrical measurements.

Yes, he did call you a Nazi, though it is clearly not "a reflexive (and rather dramatic) overreaction".

0.03% is 70dB below signal. It could not be enough in some cases. What subjectivists don’t get is that there is a certain elegance in good engineering and top level specs as well. It saddens me that some people here think like subjectivists.


What is your evidence that 0.03% THD is audible?

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #8 –
Quote from: pdq on
Quote from: mmrkaic on
Quote from: greynol on
THD of less than 0.03% not good enough for you?

...and despite the erroneous belief one of our highly astute members has about this community, Sound quality is not determined through electrical measurements.

Yes, he did call you a Nazi, though it is clearly not "a reflexive (and rather dramatic) overreaction".

0.03% is 70dB below signal. It could not be enough in some cases. What subjectivists don’t get is that there is a certain elegance in good engineering and top level specs as well. It saddens me that some people here think like subjectivists.


What is your evidence that 0.03% THD is audible?

I suggest reading this: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/interpreting-thd-measurements-think-db-not-percent

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #9 –
I pulled 0.03% out of my ass. It could have been 0.005%. I suggest you step back consider what sound quality literally is.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #10 –
Quote from: greynol on
I pulled 0.03% out of my ass. It could have been 0.005%. I suggest you step back consider what sound quality literally is.

I have considered that very carefully. No biggie if you disagree. But you may wish to take a look at the above link to a paper by Benchmark Media and you will see why some of us strive to get distortion below the absolute threshold of audibility.

Cheers.

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #12 –
Quote from: greynol on
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115054.msg948767.html#msg948767

OK, if you insist: 0.03% is not bad, but it does offer an absolute guarantee that it is below the threshold of audibility. Benchmark thinks that you need at least 0.001% for that in practical cases.

There is subtle point here: 0.03% might not be audible, but it is not guaranteed to be inaudible; 0.001% or better is guaranteed to be inaudible in almost all practical cases.

Finally, at least this is how I see things, excellent specs have an aesthetic quality of their own. Frankly, I'm surprised that I have to emphasize this here -- this is supposed to be a forum for objectivists and admirers of superlative engineering.
 

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #14 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: mmrkaic on
this is supposed to be a forum for objectivists and admirers of superlative engineering.
That's a bit presumptuous (and incorrect).

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,3974.html

Well, I guess I've interpreted point 8 of the TOS too broadly. To me, if you believe in ABX, you are an objectivist. And if you are an objectivist, you love good engineering. How can it be otherwise?

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #15 –
Quote from: mmrkaic on
0.03% is 70dB below signal. It could not be enough in some cases. What subjectivists don’t get is that there is a certain elegance in good engineering and top level specs as well. It saddens me that some people here think like subjectivists.
I did warn you might embarrass yourself like those subjectivists on AA. The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out and assumptions. Its more of a sales pitch, but you didn't understand it.
THD is a near useless metric for audibility of distortion. Try this instead http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/The%20Perception%20of%20Distortion.pdf
Or better yet, spend $100, join AES, then I can link you to a dozen articles only available to members.
One more time, the two reasons I quoted above are not why you prefer your stereo.

Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #17 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: mmrkaic on
0.03% is 70dB below signal. It could not be enough in some cases. What subjectivists don’t get is that there is a certain elegance in good engineering and top level specs as well. It saddens me that some people here think like subjectivists.
I did warn you might embarrass yourself like those subjectivists on AA. The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out and assumptions. Its more of a sales pitch, but you didn't understand it.
THD is a near useless metric for audibility of distortion. Try this instead http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/The%20Perception%20of%20Distortion.pdf
Or better yet, spend $100, join AES, then I can link you to a dozen articles only available to members.
One more time, the two reasons I quoted above are not why you prefer your stereo.

Dude, if you understood the Benchmark paper, you would get the following simple fact -- you don't need a listening test if you drive THD low enough, i.e. below the threshold of hearing.

BTW, the paper that you linked is a "curious" piece of work. I mean, charts with unknown units on the axis, unclear how the correlations were calculated (Pearson or Spearman) etc. Dude, before you try to bedazzle me with empirical analysis again, take into account that I do statistics for a living.

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #20 –
Quote from: mmrkaic on
Dude, before you try to bedazzle me with empirical analysis again, take into account that I do statistics for a living.
I knew it wasn't engineering and/or perception.  ;)
No biggie
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #21 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Quote from: mmrkaic on
you don't need a listening test
I do. It's critical actually.


Well, I don't. I buy equipment with specs that are good enough to guarantee audio fidelity. The human ear is just no precise enough for analyzing electronic equipment. Why pollute your audio buying decision by auditioning the gear? Rely on the math, dude!

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #23 –
Quote from: mmrkaic on
When my post was ridiculed on Audio Asylum, I noted the following post: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1158857.html

The dude claims that I don't understand audio quality. Well, let's see.

My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003% over most of the power range (1W-95W), very low noise (The A-weighted noise of the power section is -113dB!), an excellent DAC, one resonant power supply per channel and well engineered thermal management.  So, for most practical sound levels the distortion of my amplifier+DAC system is below the threshold of hearing. My speakers are also quite accurate.

An then some dude with tube gear accuses ME of "living in a bubble when it comes to quality audio playback". That is beyond ridiculous.
It is not surprising.  You'd get the same responses posting objective medical information on a homeopathy forum.

Re: Vinyl aficionados and their perception of audio quality

Reply #24 –
Quote from: old tech on
Quote from: mmrkaic on
When my post was ridiculed on Audio Asylum, I noted the following post: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1158857.html

The dude claims that I don't understand audio quality. Well, let's see.

My amplifier has THD of less than 0.003% over most of the power range (1W-95W), very low noise (The A-weighted noise of the power section is -113dB!), an excellent DAC, one resonant power supply per channel and well engineered thermal management.  So, for most practical sound levels the distortion of my amplifier+DAC system is below the threshold of hearing. My speakers are also quite accurate.

An then some dude with tube gear accuses ME of "living in a bubble when it comes to quality audio playback". That is beyond ridiculous.
It is not surprising.  You'd get the same responses posting objective medical information on a homeopathy forum.

Nicely put.
 
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