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Lossy Audio Compression => AAC => AAC - General => Topic started by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-15 22:21:53

Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-15 22:21:53
A user on the FAAC forum reports success.
http://www.audiocoding.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=841&t=830 (http://www.audiocoding.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=841&t=830)
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: novocane on 2001-12-18 17:49:06
I know the Philips EXP30317 eXpanium supports AAC. Does anyone have tested it, or knows if  supports files encoded with psytel ?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Dibrom on 2001-12-18 17:56:58
I don't know this, but I'd be interested in finding out myself... PsyTEL would be great on a portable
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: rjamorim on 2001-12-18 18:12:25
In this propaganda they speak about AAC support
http://www.audio.philips.com/Downloads/PDF..._exp401_row.pdf (http://www.audio.philips.com/Downloads/PDF/ProductLeaflet/LF_exp401_row.pdf)

But the specifications don't mention anything
about AAC.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 04:11:57
i just got a philips exp50317 that supports aac when i rma'ed my old exp10317 (talk about free upgrade! )... if someone would be kind enough to explain how to use psytel to encode files as that -h extension just flies by the screen and i have no clue what to do, then i would gladly post results of various aac codecs on the Philips EXP series
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 04:53:13
oh and i found some specs for the aac support on the philips line... and im a newbie to all this aac stuff so i dont really know what it means but here it is anyway:

"AAC format: ISO 13818-7 MPEG-2 (low complexity profile), stereo, ADTS and ADIF headers, AAC bit rate =<160 kbps"
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 05:13:50
Quote
if someone would be kind enough to explain how to use psytel to encode files as that -h extension just flies by the screen and i have no clue what to do
I HIGHLY reccomend you try out Speek's EXCELLENT PsyTEL frontend:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/download/Ivan&Menno_1.3.zip (http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/download/Ivan&Menno_1.3.zip)
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 05:18:19
According to Amazon.com you're right!

Features:
MP3 and ACC playback with CD-R/-RW compatibility
100-second Electronic Skip Protection (ESP)
VBR (variable bit-rate) playback
15 hours' playback time with 4 AA batteries (ESP on)
Includes AC adapter and 3-key remote control
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 05:21:17
of course im right... im holding the manual and cd player in my hands 
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 05:27:34
Well, now you all know what to get me for Christmas!
It's a pity it doesn't go over 160 kbps and only does LC. Oh well, it's a good start! Did you tryout Ivan & Menno yet?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 05:30:09
im trying it out now... for some reason when i try to play it, there is no sound and the counter goes by about 3 seconds every second... :confused: guess i gotta play with the settings in Ivan...
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 05:40:21
*********** PsyTEL® MPEG-4 AAC Encoder V1.3 (build Dec  6 2001) ***********
                  Copyright © 1999-2001 PsyTEL Research
                  Copyright © 1999-2001 Ivan Dimkovic

This program is protected by copyright law and international treaties.
Any reproduction or distribution of this program, or any portion of it
may result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be
prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under law.

For further info please visit http://www.psytel-research.co.yu (http://www.psytel-research.co.yu)


usage: AACENC -switches
switches: -h              Print help
          -br <x>          Bit rate in kbits per second (dflt: 128)
          -if <x>          Input file name
          -of <x>          Output file name
          -qual <x>        Encoder quality level (1-9) (dflt: 9)
          -production      Production (slowest) CBR encoding
          -altcbr          Alternative CBR mode
          -ihsc            Improved Human Speech Coding
          -nh              Disable ADTS header (raw ISO 13818-7 AAC file)
          -noshort        Disable block switching (debug only!)
          -no_temporal    Disable temporal masking
          -lc              MPEG-2 AAC Low Complexity (LC) mode
          -profile        AAC Profile:
                          0: MPEG-2 AAC Main, 1: MPEG-2 AAC LC,
                          2: MPEG-4 AAC LC, 3: MPEG-4 AAC Main,
                          4: MPEG-4 AAC LTP
          -adif            Use ADIF header
          -vr              Variable bit rate (VBR mode, good quality)
          -vbrhi          Total VBR mode (recommended, high quality)
          -tape            Preset: Tape VBR Mode
          -radio          Preset: Radio VBR Mode
          -internet        Preset: Internet VBR Mode
          -streaming      Preset: Streaming VBR Mode
          -normal          Preset: Normal VBR Mode (recommended)
          -extreme        Preset: Extreme VBR Mode
          -archive        Preset: Archive VBR Mode (best quality)
          -ultra          Preset: Ultra (transcoding) mode (highest bitrate)
          -lfe            Use LFE channel (only for 4 and 6 channel input)
          -c <x>          Cut-Off frequency in Hz (lowpass) (dflt: 0)
          -ltq <x>        Decrease Threshold in Quiet by n dB (dflt: 0)
          -raise_smr <x>  Increase Signal to Mask Ratio by n dB (dflt: 0)
          -low_ath        Use highest sensitivity hearing threshold
          -no_ath          Disable ATH
          -no_tns          Disable TNS coding
          -artist <x>      Artist Name
          -title <x>      Title Name
          -album <x>      Album
          -year <x>        Year
          -use_tags        Use Tags
          -resample <x>    Resample input to x Hz (dflt: 0)
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 05:44:32
try typing:
-lc -br 160
in the Switches: box
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 05:47:22
or if you're not in too big of a hurry:
-lc -br 160 -production
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 05:58:37
waahooooooooooo it works! 

i kinda am in a big hurry considering im supposed to be either studying or sleeping for my calculus AP and physics exams tomorrow... so i just did -lc -br 128.  oh well... at least it works:D

oh and btw... it runs on 2 AA not 4 like amazon.com and philips.com reports... its a typo on both places... 

now i just gotta find out about WMA... if i tilt the cd player, i can see a spot on the LCD that says WMA right below MP3 and AAC, but it doesnt work :confused: oh well... time for sleep...
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 06:35:07
Quote
now i just gotta find out about WMA... if i tilt the cd player, i can see a spot on the LCD that says WMA right below MP3 and AAC, but it doesnt work
Who cares about wma??? It plays ISO AAC!!!
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Dibrom on 2001-12-20 06:47:45
Hrmm.. this is pretty cool news.  Can you try VBR?  Perhaps the -extreme preset?  If that works I'm seriously going to consider picking one of these up..
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: JohnV on 2001-12-20 06:54:27
Quote
Originally posted by layer3maniac
Who cares about wma??? It plays ISO AAC!!!
I wonder for how long.. wonder if Dolby & co know about this and are gonna do something about it?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: ff123 on 2001-12-20 08:07:57
I've got an EXP40117 (8cm disks) ordered and on its way from Amazon ($130).  If I don't like it I can always return it.

ff123
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 08:21:54
I know, I saw that on there. It lists for $180 too. I wonder how hard it is to find 8 cm cdrw's for it?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: ff123 on 2001-12-20 08:24:02
I don't know about cd-rw's but I should be able to find the cd-r's pretty easily -- I have a couple from the last time I visited a computer swap meet, and probably Fry's (computer chain) has them.

ff123
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 08:55:40
ff123, they give the same specs for the eXpanium  EXP401 as for the EXP503:

AAC format: ISO 13818-7 MPEG-2 (low complexity profile), stereo, ADTS and ADIF header, AAC bit rate ¡Ü 160 kbps

If you want to look over the user's manual you can download it here:

http://www.audio.philips.com/Downloads/PDF...401_usa_eng.pdf (http://www.audio.philips.com/Downloads/PDF/Manuals/IFU_exp401_usa_eng.pdf)
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Snarko on 2001-12-20 09:26:19
www.audio.philips.com (http://www.audio.philips.com) also says the EXP303 has AAC support.

One odd thing about the details for the 303 vs. the 503 is that the 503's amp section is only listed with an 82 dB S/N, while the 303 has a 100 dB S/N - can that be right?!
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 12:48:39
Quote
Originally posted by layer3maniac
Who cares about wma??? It plays ISO AAC!!!


true... but why would they put wma on the screen (but not in the manual) and not have it supported?

Quote
Originally posted by JohnV
I wonder for how long.. wonder if Dolby & co know about this and are gonna do something about it?

well i dont think they can do anything about the players... just the encoders... i mean if you have the license for the encoder you shouldnt have to pay for the license on the player....

the 8cm one is the same price as the normal one, so if size isnt a problem, you might as well just get the 503 and have full capacity cd-r's and rw's

as for the 303 vs 503... i think someone mistyped one of them... they've got wrong info all over the place... i would think they have the same amp, but whether its the 82 or 100 i dunno...
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Speek on 2001-12-20 13:04:59
Quote
Originally posted by layer3maniac
I HIGHLY reccomend you try out Speek's EXCELLENT PsyTEL frontend:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/download/Ivan&Menno_1.3.zip (http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/download/Ivan&Menno_1.3.zip)


Thanx for the compliment

I did a very minor upgrade, so now the link is: http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/download/Ivan&Menno_1.4.zip (http://home.wanadoo.nl/~w.speek/download/Ivan&Menno_1.4.zip)

If you're upgrading from v1.3 and want to keep your existing presets.cfg file, please remove "default" from the first line of that file.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2001-12-20 17:39:13
Btw,  AACEnc v1.6 is available - this version features more improvements in psychoacoustics, fixed M/S bug, dynamic window grouping (eliminates drop-outs and chirps), etc..
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Dibrom on 2001-12-20 17:42:42
Hrmm.. this is cool stuff to hear Ivan.  I'll have to check this out.  Nice to see continued improvements to your great encoder... keep up the good work!
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Speek on 2001-12-20 18:07:48
Me too. Glad to see that you (Ivan) is working on the audio encoder again.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 18:37:42
Awesome news! You ROCK Ivan!!! Maybe you'll be able to make a deal with Phillips to pay off Dolby and distribute aacenc with Phillips CD players. Hey, a guy can DREAM, can't he?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 18:42:10
I sure hope Roberto gets his hands on the 1.6 encoder...
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 18:48:50
Quote
Originally posted by Ivan Dimkovic
Btw,  AACEnc v1.6 is available - this version features more improvements in psychoacoustics, fixed M/S bug, dynamic window grouping (eliminates drop-outs and chirps), etc..


where would i be able to get that?

oh and so far, it works with vbr's on normal... encoding an extreme right now to test it out.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 18:53:18
So it works with vbr? Cool! If it exceeds 160 kbps, extreme probably won't work but... WHO KNOWS?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 18:55:27
extreme works! :eek: 

man... now im gonna have to re-encode all 3 of my mp3-cds....
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 19:08:51
heres something interesting i just noticed...
mp3 cbr 128 for a 9:30 song-    8816 KBs
same 9:30 song in aac cbr 128- 6591 KBs 

i knew it was supposed to be smaller but i didnt know it was that much smaller
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Dibrom on 2001-12-20 19:24:11
Quote
Originally posted by Oscar1613
extreme works! :eek:  

man... now im gonna have to re-encode all 3 of my mp3-cds....


Wow.. this is great!  Gonna have to pick one of these up now
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 19:29:44
I would have expected a 128k aac file to be around the same size as a 128k mp3. Also, when you encoded in extreme did you still use the -lc switch or are you saying it plays main profile too?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: ff123 on 2001-12-20 19:32:00
Quote
heres something interesting i just noticed... 
mp3 cbr 128 for a 9:30 song- 8816 KBs 
same 9:30 song in aac cbr 128- 6591 KBs 

i knew it was supposed to be smaller but i didnt know it was that much smaller


Looks like you've actually got a 96 kbit/s AAC file.

ff123
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 19:35:48
Do you have the aac plugin for winamp? With it you can use the File Info feature to determine the profile and average bitrate of your files (and play them too of course).
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 19:38:10
If not, you can grab it here:
http://www.inf.ufpr.br/~rja00/ (http://www.inf.ufpr.br/~rja00/)
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 19:39:18
extreme i still used the -lc switch... havent tried it without it yet, but i will do that soon

it could have been a 96, im not really sure... i thought i encoded that particular file with 128 but i could be worng (and probably am) and winamp reports all aac files as 160kbits:confused:
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 19:46:22
That's odd, the file I just encoded using -lc -extreme shows approx 192 in winamp. Are you using a recent plugin?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-20 19:48:10
yup
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: rjamorim on 2001-12-20 20:12:09
Quote
Originally posted by layer3maniac
I sure hope Roberto gets his hands on the 1.6 encoder...


Yup! It's already there.
http://www.inf.ufpr.br/~rja00/ (http://www.inf.ufpr.br/~rja00/)

Regards;

Roberto.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-20 20:24:30
Roberto - You DA MAN! Thanks again for all your efforts keeping youe page updated and for having the cajones to stand up to corporate bullies.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: rjamorim on 2001-12-20 20:32:24
Quote
Originally posted by layer3maniac
Roberto - You DA MAN! Thanks again for all your efforts keeping youe page updated and for having the cajones to stand up to corporate bullies.


No problem. That's a pleasure. 

By the way, I have already received a very scary  e-mail from Dolby. The same stuff as always - I wiil be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under law, blabla, blabla. They probably don't know they can't reach me in Brazil... 

But i'm afraid they'll try to scary the sysadmin - and, then, she'll probably shut my page. So, you'd better enjoy while it last.

Regards;

Roberto.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: rjamorim on 2001-12-20 20:33:52
And they sent me the mail with attachments! Since I explicitly say in my page "Please, text-only e-mail without attachments.",
I choose to solemnly ignore it.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: novocane on 2001-12-21 14:32:49
Am I wrong or psytel could encode files in the LC or LTP profile? Does psytel encodes with the Main profile?It would be nice to see also if the expanium supports files with the -archiving setting...
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Dibrom on 2001-12-21 15:07:40
Yes, PsyTEL can encode in the LC profile or Main LTP.  After talking with Ivan, I believe he feels that LTP is a better solution than just Main, since apparently it allows for lower overall bitrates (through using fewer frames) while maintaining quality.

I too for that matter am interested in seeing if this player will work with a non LC profile encoded AAC.  It'd also be kind of cool to see some very high bitrate CBR and VBR tests (up to 300kbps and beyond) to see just how high this thing will go, since apparently it is able to go over the 160kbps stated in the literature.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: JohnV on 2001-12-21 16:00:12
Yeah, have to remember that LTP (long term prediction) is for MPEG4 audio only.

According to Ivan, LTP is also faster and not so sensitive to transmission errors like Main-profile's backward prediction.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2001-12-21 16:25:44
LTP prediction showed similar performance (quality) as backward-adaptive prediction.

BWP prediction (Main Profile) is based on long prediction sequences ('P' frames) - this casuses problems with:

- Seeking (you need to find the first frame after the last predictor reset in order to reconstruct all frames)

- Problems if packet is lost in transmission (error is propagated in the following frames until the predictor reset is sent)

Also, Main profile prediction is very complex, taking 40% of the decoding time.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-21 18:07:05
oh jeez... ok someone post all the switches you want me to test out on the expanium and i'll test them later today:)
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Dibrom on 2001-12-21 20:03:09
Well I'd try testing -archive and -ultra first (without the -lc).  Those presets use LTP by default, and should run up to some fairly high bitrates, so that'd answer most of what I'm interested in
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-22 03:26:46
well heres some interesting results... they dont work with just plain -archive and -ultra, but they do work with -archive -adif and -ultra -adif... so i guess it just needs the adif header to work correctly not low complexity...:confused: 
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: layer3maniac on 2001-12-22 04:38:21
WOO HOO! Awesome news, Oscar! I'm buying mine tomorrow!  Lets see, that's Good Guys - 1, Dolby/RIAA - 0...
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-22 06:02:57
heheh... its a good player, but it is slightly buggy... for example, for AAC files it displays the file name then has 0123456789 after the file name, and for MP3 files that have ID3 tags, it displays artist title then about 10 characters from the end of the previous song's title... :confused: oh well... i guess thats the price for AAC...
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: ff123 on 2001-12-22 08:02:53
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00...5875498-9038930 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005O02X/ref%3Dpd%5Fsbs%5Fe%5F1/107-5875498-9038930)

Apparently the exp40117 is now at a below-cost price of $99 at amazon.

ff123
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Milkman.dan on 2001-12-22 12:48:14
[laugh] Rock on. I have stayed away from mp3cd player's 'cause I don't want to lug discs around for mp3's ick sound quality.

but I think I'd pony up for this, and the 8cm discs are a nice tradeoff.

any chance of some firmware hack-age and some MusePack support?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: stoff on 2001-12-23 15:45:01
Quote
Originally posted by Oscar1613
well heres some interesting results... they dont work with just plain -archive and -ultra, but they do work with -archive -adif and -ultra -adif... so i guess it just needs the adif header to work correctly not low complexity...:confused: 


Awesome indeed. Are my Rio Volt in danger?!? :eek:

Anyway what is the deal with this LC profile? Is the sound quality lower. Ivan?

Regards, Stoff
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Coilean on 2001-12-24 21:58:49
Pricewatch shows the exp30317 is available (link below) for $117. It comes with a full car stereo kit and uses full size CDs. The vendor description doesn't claim AAC support, although the technical specification pdf available from philips does. Unfortunately, the vendor only has a single review at resellerratings (which was a 7), so shop at your own peril.

http://www.uricom.com/component.asp?Cat_ID...P3/Audio Player (http://www.uricom.com/component.asp?Cat_ID=41&Cat_Name=MP3/Audio Player)
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: razor1000 on 2001-12-26 23:16:54
You can get Memorex ones at Amazon.com, but for the cool stuff look here:
http://qtccdr.com/cgi-bin/category.cfm?category=CDRW%20Media (http://qtccdr.com/cgi-bin/category.cfm?category=CDRW%20Media)

They've got 4x extended burn (200mb, 20min) and standard burn 10x!!!

Woo ha!
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Filburt on 2001-12-27 02:08:24
Frickin ADIF header doesn't seek though . Oh well...I just got the EXP503...I will confirm that all profiles on psytel work w/ -adif. The sound quality is probably the best I've heard in an mp3-cd player...alas not matching that of my ancient decrepit Sony D-E775. The old Sony has been banged up so bad by people that the ESP doesn't work and it's incredibly easy to skip. I only keep it around cause it has an optical out and sounds really good.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Filburt on 2001-12-27 02:45:49
Oh as a note...I read the manual for both the 303 and 503. They are both >100db SNR. I don't know where the heck that guy saw 82. As for WMA...Oscar have you tried it on your player yet? I would except I only have 1 CDR that is already used :/.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2001-12-27 02:50:25
on the philips website it lists it as 82 somewhere... theres a bunch of typos on the webpage... also says one of em requires 4AA even though there are only 2 battery compartments:rolleyes:

yeah i put a WMA file on there and it didnt recognize it at all... just skipped over it... oh well
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Filburt on 2001-12-27 04:40:22
Eh not a big loss....wma is only useful for 96kbps anyway and that's only on v7 (not v8). So xtreme profile works with ADTS on the expanium...but ultra and archive require ADIF correct?
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: jordanp on 2001-12-27 04:57:41
Does anybody know a store in Canada that sells the expanium?  Amazon doesn't ship electronics to Canada and it is easier to deal with a store within the country for me.  If not, what would the best way for me to purchase it?  Thank you,

Jordan
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: Oscar1613 on 2002-01-02 06:56:06
im not sure about the adif/adts... i only tried with adif, havent played around with adts yet.
Title: Portable Iso AAC Player
Post by: ff123 on 2002-01-04 03:35:34
Well, I'm on my second Expanium 40117.  I returned the first one because it drained the single AA battery after about 24 hours, with the unit turned off.  I had trouble making an mp3 disk it could read, but that turned out to be related to my old CD writer, which apparently can't make good enough CD's for it.  My newer writer at work works just fine as far as making Expanium-readable CD's is concerned.

I got my second one, and it had the same problem, so this time I pulled my DVM.  The sucker draws 70 mA as soon as you pop in the battery.  When you turn it on, it draws about 300 mA, and when you turn it back off again, it draws 160 mA.  Then if I open the lid, the current drops back down to 90 mA.  What a POS!

I'm going to call technical support tomorrow, but I wonder if I really have a defective unit if already two of them behave the same way?  It must be a big design flaw.

ff123
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