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CD-R and Audio Hardware => Vinyl => Topic started by: The Irish Man on 2018-04-13 20:22:40

Title: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: The Irish Man on 2018-04-13 20:22:40
High Definition Vinyl is almost here (https://pitchfork.com/news/high-definition-vinyl-is-happening-possibly-as-early-as-next-year/)

Can't Wait :D
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: AndyH-ha on 2018-04-13 21:17:07
So they are hoping they can sell enough to make a profit. Besides that, what is the point?
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: pdq on 2018-04-13 22:36:05
This doesn't address any of the issues that I have with vinyl.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: SACD on 2018-04-14 00:08:50
"30 percent more amplitude". In order to appeal to pseudo audiophiles PR will state it's "30% more 'tude than your grand pa's records"
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: greynol on 2018-04-14 00:42:24
I didn't know records weren't already HD, being analog and all.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Audible! on 2018-04-14 05:53:49
Hmmm. Sounds pretty SD to me.

Given that "SD audio" is usually thought to be 16/44.1 digital, this isn't even likely to match (mere) standard definition.

It's going to be significantly substandard, in fact.
So really it's SSD? Or maybe sSD?
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Chibisteven on 2018-04-14 06:57:43
Low Definition and Ultra Low Definition.  Extreme Low Definition.  Did I mention low definition?
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: The Irish Man on 2018-04-14 08:40:15
in the unlikely event, this comes to the market place. Which I have my doubts

Would they be charging a premium price for this so-called HD Vinyl?

And would lovers of Vinyl pay this, If they already think Vinyl is perfect now.

And what would the LP Crackle sound like in HD. :))
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2018-04-14 09:35:09
I think it's interesting
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2018-04-14 10:43:18
High Definition Vinyl is almost here (https://pitchfork.com/news/high-definition-vinyl-is-happening-possibly-as-early-as-next-year/)

Can't Wait :D

Looks like the vinyl version of techniques that have been used to put digital sound tracks on traditional movie film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_Digital_Sound
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Porcus on 2018-04-14 11:54:48
I didn't know records weren't already HD, being analog and all.

Sarcasm aside, this is just what is wrong about the "HD" term in digital audio. Just a weasel word for the notion that certain other formats (44.1/16, but also 48/16) are not high enough.

Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: ajinfla on 2018-04-14 11:58:03
Quote
The HD vinyl process involves converting audio digitally to a 3D topographic map.

And what would the LP Crackle sound like in HD. :))
Clearer snap, crackle, pop, with more resolution, but still blurred. Until MQA is used in 3D conversion.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Groschi on 2018-04-14 14:18:47
So basically this is just plain old vinyl with an updated (laser cutting or whatever) mastering process? Maybe curcumventing the need for the electroplating process? Still not buying into it from an audio perspective, but i can see how this process might cut the cost of vinyl production, especially for small runs. Not a vinyl-believer myself, but seeing how crucial physical sales are for small record labels and underground music at this time,  this might turn out to be a good thing after all. Just to clarify: i don't care much about those records. But i do care about those labels and the music scene.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Groschi on 2018-04-14 15:01:22
Anyone got the irony of the next "audiophile" thing in analog audio being mastered in a purely digital process?
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: DVDdoug on 2018-04-14 19:01:20
30% more amplitude is +2.28dB...   Almost 3dB more dynamic range!     ::)
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Groschi on 2018-04-14 19:32:29
30% more amplitude is +2.28dB...   Almost 3dB more dynamic range!     ::)

I assume that the direct-to-stamper laser cutting stuff might significantly increase the SNR anyway. In the best case, vinyl just got a bit less horrible. Also i suspect that if the amplitude can be increased by a significant amount, you'd also need a cartridge that mechanically can handle such high levels. Audio equipment salespeople will love this!
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: krabapple on 2018-04-14 21:12:08
 "higher audio fidelity, louder volume, and longer playing times than conventional LPs. "

replacing a traditional cutting head with a laser ....all to get what CD already offers.  And it will still be noisier and less accurate to the source signal.

iow, typical vinyl fetishism
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Nikaki on 2018-04-15 05:05:22
Would they be charging a premium price for this so-called HD Vinyl?
Not charging more would defeat the whole point of this. Its only reason to exist is that some people are planning to get other people's money by trying to sell them BS.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Groschi on 2018-04-15 10:29:30
Would they be charging a premium price for this so-called HD Vinyl?
Not charging more would defeat the whole point of this. Its only reason to exist is that some people are planning to get other people's money by trying to sell them BS.

Ignoring all the audiophile-speak, i wouldn't call the whole thing bullshit per se. I can really see how this stuff *might* result in better or at least more consistent quality. I see two points of potential improvement here:

1. The HD Vinyl (*sigh*) magical  laser voodoo cutting process *might* be more accurate than what a traditional cutting lathe can do, because of the cutting stylus physics & dimensions, etc.

2. Unless you need several stampers (i.e. you're probably Jack White) there's no need for the electroplating process, one of the production steps where quality loss happens. The quality control in this step has a big influence on the surface noise and frequency response of the final product.
What you get out of the HD Vinyl (*aaarght!*) mastering process is a finished stamper that goes directly into the record press with no intermediary steps involved.
At least if i understood everything right.

But in the end, it's still vinyl with all of its well known problems and limitations.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Porcus on 2018-04-15 11:29:34
2. Unless you need several stampers (i.e. you're probably Jack White)

I admit that I laughed. But is it so nowadays that LPs are shipped worldwide, or do they rather press locally/domestically due to shipping costs (or that vinyl runs are often just licensed off)?
(I did a quick check for import tariffs on LPs, and for North America or Western Europe there aren't much of it. Canada 3 percent is about it.)
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: Nikaki on 2018-04-15 13:06:30
Ignoring all the audiophile-speak, i wouldn't call the whole thing bullshit per se.
It's a plastic disc with a needle scratching against it.

I can understand using existing records. They can be fun. But coming up with new vinyl standards? Just... why? There is exactly zero reason for it, other than taking money from people who have too much of it.

Edit:
If some people can't stand digital for some weird reason, they could instead invent some new high-speed tape standard. Go for "HD Tape" or something. Good tape sounds excellent and is quite practical. But vinyl? Seriously, come on. This isn't about audio anymore. It's about the gadgets themselves.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: The Irish Man on 2018-04-15 15:31:48
Ignoring all the audiophile-speak, i wouldn't call the whole thing bullshit per se.
It's a plastic disc with a needle scratching against it.

I can understand using existing records. They can be fun. But coming up with new vinyl standards? Just... why? There is exactly zero reason for it, other than taking money from people who have too much of it.

Edit:
If some people can't stand digital for some weird reason, they could instead invent some new high-speed tape standard. Go for "HD Tape" or something. Good tape sounds excellent and is quite practical. But vinyl? Seriously, come on. This isn't about audio anymore. It's about the gadgets themselves.

So, you won't be 1st in line when it goes on sale then?  :))
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: polemon on 2018-04-23 08:06:25
OK, just going by the idiocy of the actual article:

It implies, because Lasers, must be more accurate: Well, no. Lasers have the potential to be more accurate for certain processes, but when it comes to cutting, surface and material impurities amplify inconsistencies with laser cutting. So that alone is kindof a red herring. Anyone in the medical field knows this.

So, when the LPs are supposed to be playable on existing turntables and cartridges, the limits of those are already in place, aren't they. To make the signal "30% louder", I'd have to have the pickup to be moved at a 30% higher amplitude, vertically laterally, depending on the channel. In my mind, my brain initially parsed the "HD" part in the article as "They're putting 5.1 channels into a vinyl" for some reason, made me actually curious how...

It seems the article is weirdly fond of it being a Swiss "invention" and the amount of money dropped on the entire endeavor, supposedly.

Also, they seem to very much like the sound of certain words: "3D topographic map", that's really just putting a gerber file into an extruder. Every 3D printer and milling machine does that.

It sounds awfully like a cost-cutting scheme to me. Instead of cutting the master on a lathe and then make a stamper out of that, they simply use a commercially available laser etching machine, and simply upload the gerber file or whatever on to that.
Now that the hipsters re-discovering Vinyl from a couple years ago have gotten bored with it, it might be simply too expensive to keep creating vinyls "the old way", and companies are looking for a modern alternative. This article seems to be trying to sell this as an improvement, but I really believe it's just done out of necessity, since it's so much more quicker, easier with modern tools, and industrially easier to automate. It also requires less specialized machinery.

Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NmJG5abDV8
Note how little space that machine needs, and how it's not in a machine shop. Technically, you can put it next to a large office laser printer in a copy room, etc. totally wouldn't look out of place.
Also, I have no reason to believe, that the laser would not be able to create stampers of superior quality to the conventional method, using a small enough power setting and enough time, and the correct material. Certain machine parts are made to much tighter tolerances these days using laser cutting and laser etching.

Sounds very much like vaporware to me, but what do I know, it might just be the most cost effective way to create stampers today.
The narrative catering to no one but the mentally weak is a bit insulting, though. The fact they didn't even say what laser engraving machine they're using etc. speaks volumes about how this is nothing but a marketing bullshit article, selling ordinary things as the new gold.

The accuracy of the stampers, will depend on the quality of the laser engraver and the metal plate they're gonna be using, as well as things like settings for time, etc. Laser etching is an ablative process, the slower it's done, the more accurate it is. I can see how that might be a selector for future vinyl pressings, btw.

Also: 3D PRINTED VINYL WHEN‽
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: The Irish Man on 2019-05-18 18:02:12
Just noticed the company now has a web-site.

hdvinyl.org/ (https://hdvinyl.org/)
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: polemon on 2019-05-18 20:30:57
The tagline seems to be: "The full power of analog"...

I have no words.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: m14u on 2019-05-18 23:50:11
"In order to laser-cut stampers, the audio data needs to be converted into a 3D topography first. For this we develop our own software called Perfect Groove together with mastering legend Scott Hull and 4-times-grammy winner Darcy Proper. The software also allows mastering engineers to optimize dynamcis, frequency range and play lenght of the mastered files. "
analog...fullish power.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: The Irish Man on 2019-05-19 09:56:40
"The software also allows mastering engineers to optimize dynamcis, frequency range and play lenght of the mastered files."

I do hope the finished product is better than their spelling.
Title: Re: High Definition Vinyl
Post by: polemon on 2019-05-19 15:15:42
I wonder what a mastering legend has to do with making a CAD generator.

It's a bit like asking an artist on advice about designing printers.
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