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CD-R and Audio Hardware => Vinyl => Topic started by: board on 2016-12-28 16:57:57

Title: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2016-12-28 16:57:57
I arrived here from the wiki on vinyl myths.
Here's a spectrum of a recording of a vinyl record. What do you make of this? Does this show that vinyl records include content above 20 kHz, as has now been added to the wiki (it wasn't in the wiki a while back).

(http://i.imgur.com/ryHWm.jpg)

Does anybody know the references to the information about supersonic content on vinyl records?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: KozmoNaut on 2016-12-28 17:05:47
Yes, there is some content above 20kHz, but:

1) It's extremely faint, in a frequency range where even very young humans have very little hearing capability.

2) It's very likely to simply be noise. Instruments are designed to produce sound in the normal range audible by humans, not in the ultrasonic range.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Apesbrain on 2016-12-28 17:36:34
Does this show that vinyl records include content above 20 kHz, as has now been added to the wiki (it wasn't in the wiki a while back).
It's been established for some time that vinyl records can include content above 20 kHz.  At least one 1970s quad format was dependent upon reproduction up to 50 kHz: https://quadraphonicaudio.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/cd-4/

But the topic is does it "really matter" which I take to mean "is there anything really there and is it perceptible?"  To my knowledge no one has demonstrated that humans can reliably detect the absence of these frequencies.  Prove it to yourself: take that 24/96 file and make a copy that is low-passed at 20 kHz.  Run them both through foobar2000's ABX Comparator using your best headphones.  Take as much time as you want.  How do you score?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: dc2bluelight on 2016-12-28 18:58:57
I arrived here from the wiki on vinyl myths.
Here's a spectrum of a recording of a vinyl record. What do you make of this? Does this show that vinyl records include content above 20 kHz, as has now been added to the wiki (it wasn't in the wiki a while back).



What you're looking at is a spectrogram of the signal coming out of a vinyl reproducing system.  There is clearly spectral content above 20kHz, albeit at very low levels.  One of the many things a spectrogram does not tell you is what that content consists of, and more importantly, was it there on the master tape from which the master lacquer was cut, and even more importantly, was it there in the studio.  Even if you could answer "yes" the the content on the master and present in the studio, the next question would be: has it been altered in any way?

The most probably answer to the question of ultrasonic material on the master is that whatever the ultrasonic content is, it is not intentional.  It's either noise or distortion products, as analog tape does not have spectacular ability to record and accurately reproduce ultrasonic content, but does have a spectacular ability to generate distortion products and noise.  Past that, the question of the total vinyl system accurately reproducing distortion products and noise is a bit moot, because the system has it's one spectacular ability to generate more of both.  Just a bit of mistracking of a 10kHz signal produces third harmonic distortion at 30kHz, and that wasn't even recorded on the disc.  Recall that 1% harmonic distortion products are only 40dB down.  Mistracking can be much higher than 1%, level and frequency depending, and analog tape can be as bad or worse.  Noise voltage increases with frequency, and the noise shown is reasonable and expected from both media types. 

So yes, the ultrasonic content is there, no it's not part of the original signal.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: krabapple on 2016-12-28 21:31:56
I arrived here from the wiki on vinyl myths.
Here's a spectrum of a recording of a vinyl record. What do you make of this? Does this show that vinyl records include content above 20 kHz, as has now been added to the wiki (it wasn't in the wiki a while back).



What you're looking at is a spectrogram of the signal coming out of a vinyl reproducing system.  There is clearly spectral content above 20kHz, albeit at very low levels.  One of the many things a spectrogram does not tell you is what that content consists of, and more importantly, was it there on the master tape from which the master lacquer was cut, and even more importantly, was it there in the studio.  Even if you could answer "yes" the the content on the master and present in the studio, the next question would be: has it been altered in any way?

The most probably answer to the question of ultrasonic material on the master is that whatever the ultrasonic content is, it is not intentional.  It's either noise or distortion products, as analog tape does not have spectacular ability to record and accurately reproduce ultrasonic content, but does have a spectacular ability to generate distortion products and noise.  Past that, the question of the total vinyl system accurately reproducing distortion products and noise is a bit moot, because the system has it's one spectacular ability to generate more of both.  Just a bit of mistracking of a 10kHz signal produces third harmonic distortion at 30kHz, and that wasn't even recorded on the disc.  Recall that 1% harmonic distortion products are only 40dB down.  Mistracking can be much higher than 1%, level and frequency depending, and analog tape can be as bad or worse.  Noise voltage increases with frequency, and the noise shown is reasonable and expected from both media types. 

So yes, the ultrasonic content is there, no it's not part of the original signal.


Looking at rips fo DVD-A, SACDs, BluRay relases of old analog recordings, where the tapes were transferred to digital at >16/44, I quite often see a straight line (or rarely, two)  in ultrasonic regions of spectral views, representing inaudible hum/buzz from video monitors in the recording/mixing/mastering studio.  That's 'original' but it's noise rather than signal...original noise, I guess we can call it.  
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Apesbrain on 2016-12-28 22:05:15
^ CRT "whine" at just under 16 kHz is not even ultrasonic.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: dc2bluelight on 2016-12-29 02:42:05
^ CRT "whine" at just under 16 kHz is not even ultrasonic.

The CRT horizontal sweep waveform is not a sine wave, it's a sawtooth, very rich in harmonics.  Second harmonic of 15.75kHz is 31.5kHz, third harmonic is 47.25kHz. Passive coupling of that to an analog circuit would favor higher frequencies.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: pelmazo on 2016-12-29 12:55:04
The fact that distortion is undistinguishable from the audio signal on a spectrogram, leaves interesting opportunities to market distorting playback gear as being more audiophile, because it shows more high-frequency "signal" on the spectrogram. In other words, to sell crap at higher prices.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2016-12-30 16:45:33
So, audibility aside (I've already done blind tests and couldn't hear any difference), do you guys think it's accurate or relevant that the wiki on vinyl myths now include that vinyl records contain reasonable amounts of content above 20 kHz?
When I saw this new information I was a bit confused, as I see now that what I missed was something like "although vinyl records often contain content above 20 kHz, this content is mostly noise and distortion either generated from storage equipment in the studio or from the vinyl playback chain itself". It does say something a little bit similar afterwards, but I was still a bit bewildered. Also, another thing was added, which was a study that showed that many instruments played content above 20 kHz (most notably cymbals).
So, if we consider a case of an album recorded digitally at 24/96 and then cut to vinyl, then the vinyl might (or might not?) contain higher frequencies than the CDs...?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2017-01-01 20:43:27
Quote
So, audibility aside (I've already done blind tests and couldn't hear any difference), do you guys think it's accurate or relevant that the wiki on vinyl myths now include that vinyl records contain reasonable amounts of content above 20 kHz?
Relevant to what?   Of course, stuff you can't  hear is NOT relevant if your goal is listening to the record (or a digitized copy).

Quote
Also, another thing was added, which was a study that showed that many instruments played content above 20 kHz (most notably cymbals).
There is no "filter" or limit on acoustically or naturally generated sounds, so a cymbal or other instruments may generate "sound" beyond the range of human hearing.  

Quote
So, if we consider a case of an album recorded digitally at 24/96 and then cut to vinyl, then the vinyl might (or might not?) contain higher frequencies than the CDs...?
Yes, at 96kHz you can record beyond the limits of a CD.     But, those frequencies may be filtered-out during vinyl mastering.  (You generally don't want to "cut" supersonic or subsonic signals into vinyl.)
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2017-04-29 11:02:44
I'm bumping this topic after a long break, as I forgot about the thread.

I think Greynol is mainly the person editing the vinyl myths wiki entry, so hopefully he reads this. In any case, I still find the following quoted section a bit confusing and contradictory (I highlighted what I found most confusing/contradictory), and I didn't see any references to these claims (which are fairly recent). A quick Google search didn't reveal anything that backed up the claims of "common 23-24 kHz audio content at significant amplitude on vinyl records" (but a more thorough search might reveal this). I still haven't found any concrete evidence that shows that vinyl records have actual musical content to 23-24 kHz, where it is shown that the peaks above 20 kHz are actually music present on the master it was cut from, rather than just noise or distortion.

Quote
tests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wear.
Commonly there is audio content up to 23-24 kHz on many vinyl record
s. Many instruments have overtones up to 100 kHz. See article: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
There are rarely, if ever, any ultrasonic frequencies for vinyl to preserve. In audio recordings, such frequencies, when present, are normally low-energy noise imparted by electrical equipment and storage media used during recording, mixing, and mastering. Although some musical instruments can produce low-energy overtones in the ultrasonic range, they could only be on the vinyl if every piece of equipment and storage medium in the recording, mixing, and mastering stages was able to preserve them—which is unlikely even in modern recordings, since the average microphone or mixing console is designed only with audible frequencies in mind. Even if the overtones were preserved all the way to the mastering stage, mono and stereo lacquer cutting equipment typically includes a low-pass filter to avoid overheating the cutting head with ultrasonic frequencies, however the commonly found audio information up to 23-24 kHz is still present at significant amplitude on vinyl records.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: bennetng on 2017-04-29 11:49:10
What I care about is only one thing: transparency. But if you are so eager to prove something...

How about sending your hi-res files or test signal to a vinyl cutting service and verify it yourself? Remember to film the whole process then upload to somewhere like Youtube or Facebook. Maybe you can even earn a lot from audiophool product sponsors by doing this!
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2017-04-29 12:08:33
Please... back off with the attitude :-).
I'm of the impression/conviction that vinyl doesn't contain (much) content above 20 kHz, and what it does contain is noise/distortion. Therefore I find it confusing/misleading that the HA wiki says that it does contain supersonic audio, but the wiki doesn't provide any sources for this. In other words: I don't think the wiki should include this phrasing if there's no evidence to back it up. That is after all the golden rule of this website: evidence.
I think you are and I on the same side. I am perfectly aware that vinyl is the least transparent media available today (if we leave out cassette tapes). That is not my point. My point is simply: Why is the above (supersonic musical content) included in the wiki if it's not substantiated?

And just to make it clear: I don't care whether an audio signal contains audio content above 20 kHz or not. I have already done ABX tests of hi-rez vs. CD quality and couldn't hear any difference. That is still beside the point.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: bennetng on 2017-04-29 12:16:10
It has nothing to do with attitude. You want to find evidence right? I am merely suggesting a method so that you can prove it yourself. As I stated in my previous post already, I only care about transparency, whether vinyl can or cannot have real signal above 20khz is unimportant to me. I am not speaking for the wiki or greynol.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: ajinfla on 2017-04-29 12:29:03
I'm bumping this topic
aka "restarting the boat"
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Klimis on 2017-04-29 13:43:37
At least we have to agree if the format itself is capable of recording content over 20kHz. I mean I'm pretty sure if you would record from a digital source (that has content way above 20kHz) a Vinyl at double speed it would be all recorded accurately (same goes for tapes I guess too). Now how much the format itself as-is can retain frequencies above the 20kHz range it's a subject that is hard because I feel like the mastering/pressing, conditions and quality of Vinyl material play such a huge role that is hard to base an opinion from a variety of random releases over the years. You would need to answer with having in mind the best case scenario, which we need to agree first what is the best case scenario?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: pelmazo on 2017-04-29 14:29:35
At least we have to agree if the format itself is capable of recording content over 20kHz.
That's certainly possible. More than 50 years ago there was a wave of quadrophony (which died within a few years). Some of the various methods of recording quadrophonic sound onto vinyl used ultrasonic frequencies. So there you have a kind of practical proof of its possibility. The fact that it died rather quickly can be taken as a hint that it probably wasn't such a good idea.

As is often the case with analog, the question of whether the LP can record ultrasonic frequencies is not a yes/no question. It is a question that depends on levels, frequencies, distortion and longevity.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-04-29 21:09:45
Quote
tests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wear.
Not sure what this has to do with anything of the rest ...


Quote
Commonly there is audio content up to 23-24 kHz on many vinyl records.
That does not say whether it is information or noise.


Quote
There are rarely, if ever, any ultrasonic frequencies for vinyl to preserve
[...]
the average microphone or mixing console is designed only with audible frequencies in mind. Even if the overtones were preserved all the way to the mastering stage, mono and stereo lacquer cutting equipment typically includes a low-pass filter to avoid overheating the cutting head with ultrasonic frequencies, however the commonly found audio information up to 23-24 kHz is still present at significant amplitude on vinyl records.

The only outright "contradictory" I could see here, is the use of the term "information" for what could just as well be disinformation, nothing informative, just noise.

No idea about the factual statements though. Do really modern mixing consoles cut off above 22 kHz?


And I wonder why bennetng is replying to a discussion about the wiki only to say
I am not speaking for the wiki or greynol.
So why are you bothering enough to post those replies?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: bennetng on 2017-04-29 21:48:48
And I wonder why bennetng is replying to a discussion about the wiki only to say
I am not speaking for the wiki or greynol.
So why are you bothering enough to post those replies?
Curiosity. I rarely read the wiki but someone pulled this out. For example, how about the 1000 times playback test? What if someone record a RMAA signal on a vinyl and test it? By saying unimportant in my previous reply, I mean I will not feel sad, proud or angry if the performance of vinyl is better or worse than what I guess, it doesn't mean I am not interested to know about the result.

It's more or less like watching someone buy a McDonald's meal then put it aside for months and see if the food rot or not. The result will not affect my future McDonald's purchase anyway, but it is fun to watch.

My previous replies are pretty short, but then I really spent some time to answer your question.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-04-29 23:34:02
I am not the keeper of that page. I have made edits and will likely continue to make edits where I feel I can make a difference. People are more than welcome to review my edits.

I have locked it down in the past and make no apologies about it. The HA wiki should be a reflection of this community and its guiding philosophy. It is not a platform for unsubstantiated nonsense by audiophiles with no history of participating in forum discussions.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: ajinfla on 2017-04-30 12:12:54
Not sure if it's because of the above 20k content on vinyl, but some folks seem to take turntable talk very seriously https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1407839489254665&id=100000858823735 (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1407839489254665&id=100000858823735)
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2017-04-30 14:08:15
I am not the keeper of that page. I have made edits and will likely continue to make edits where I feel I can make a difference. People are more than welcome to review my edits.

I have locked it down in the past and make no apologies about it. The HA wiki should be a reflection of this community and its guiding philosophy. It is not a platform for unsubstantiated nonsense by audiophiles with no history of participating in forum discussions.

That basically sums up my beef with the content of the wiki at present stage: It seems to me to say explicitly that any content above 20 kHz on vinyl records is "musical content", not just noise or distortion, and that vinyl records commonly contain this "supersonic audio content", but I don't see any references to any kind of proof.
And that's what I was basically trying to get at, but which Greynol said straight out: Are the claims in the wiki of vinyl records commonly containing audio information above 20 kHz put in there by an audiophile with an axe to grind, but who has no proper evidence to back it up?
The way the wiki looks now, to me it looks like these claims were simply put in there by an audiophile, but if anybody can back it up, then we should of course allow it. I've seen some of the edits that have been made to that wiki in the past and some were definitely needed, as there were silly comments like "I can't listen to this digital crap, but I can listen to a record anytime!", ha ha ha :-D!

Anyway, that's my beef: Is the content in the wiki correct or just audiophile propaganda that can't be backed up?
That questions must also be asked of "a record can be played 1000 times without distorting". I included that part in my quote as I didn't see any references for this either, nor could I find any by a quick Google search.

As for "can vinyl records contain supersonic content", I find that discussion pointless, because as Pelmazo points out, the CD4 quadrophonic system (which is also mentioned in the wiki) needed supersonic content to work properly, but according to Arny this system never made it out of the prototype phase if I remember correctly. In any case, I believe it has been proven at some point (I don't have a reference at hand) that vinyl can contain supersonic frequencies, so therefore the debate is pointless. But what is more relevant is how much supersonic musical content does it contain? The wiki says it's of "significant amplitude".
This is just an opinion, but I believe that the records that actually do contain supersonic musical content would contain something like 1-5 % supersonic content at very best. Also, I believe that maybe 90 % of vinyl records contain no supersonic content at all, as they have been cut with a low-pass filter that gradually cuts off high frequencies. Where this cutting starts varies from album to album, but it's my impression that usually it starts around 15-18 kHz and cuts off completely at 20 kHz at the very latest.

So, where I do think I agree with bennetng is that we need some proper proof in the way of a master, whether digital or analogue, that has been shown to contain supersonic frequencies and then it has been cut to vinyl, and the vinyl record contained these supersonic frequencies, and it didn't show up as distortion. As simple as that.
Without this proof, I don't see why the claims of "musical content up to 23-24 kHz is common on vinyl records" should be in the wiki.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2017-06-07 16:50:41
I'll bump this topic, as I'm still hoping that someone can shed some light on the topics I raised in my previous posts. I tried looking through the revision history of the wiki, but couldn't figure out who had added the points in question.
So, just to sum up, I'm asking if we have proof for the following (if so, please share :-) ), and if we don't, should they be removed from the wiki?
* A vinyl record can be played 1000 times without distortion
* Vinyl records commonly (not occasionally) contain musical content (not noise or distortion) up to 23-24 kHz

If we cannot find a proper answer to these questions, it's not the end of the world but it would be nice to have it settled :-).
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2017-06-07 21:31:23
Quote
* A vinyl record can be played 1000 times without distortion
I'd say a record can't be played once without distortion?  ;)    ...Without audible  damage, I really don't know.     I'm pretty sure I never got through 1000 plays without damage, although I tried to be very careful.  I doubt I played any of my records 1000 times, but they all seemed to "deteriorate".    I assume this was mostly from human handling, and possibly from dirt/dust rather from the wear of the stylus.

Quote
* Vinyl records commonly (not occasionally) contain musical content (not noise or distortion) up to 23-24 kHz
If you can't hear it, it's not "musical".... It's not even sound...

Without having the master tapes (or digital masters) you can't possibly know if any noise/harmonics were generated as part of the vinyl production/playback process or if they were present acoustically or generated somewhere else in the production chain.   It could also be helpful to know what filtering was used ahead of the cutting lathe.

There are certain types of noise & distortion associated with vinyl.  I suppose you could analyze/characterize the supersonic "information" to see if tends to match the usual vinyl defects/limitations.   But, that wouldn't give you 100% certainty.


As a practical matter, we know records are not perfect (worse than human hearing).        And, we know that you very-rarely find an old used record that sounds as good as when it was new. 

We also know that frequency response can be perfectly adequate, regardless if it extends into the ultrasonic.   However, the "frequency balance" can vary quite a bit from record-to-record, and different phono cartridges have different frequency response (sometimes audibly different).   
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Cavaille on 2017-06-08 00:18:00
* A vinyl record can be played 1000 times without distortion

A needle is grating through grooves made out of PVC. The condition of the needle, configuration of azimuth, counterweight, etc. all play a role. There are countless possibilities for vinyl playback to be imperfect or outright wrong. All of these imperfection create stress for the record and the parts reading it. And I've yet to see a turntable/tonearm/system to 100% perfection. So that argument seems invalid to me. Though, if you can hear the effects of degrading is another question.

* Vinyl records commonly (not occasionally) contain musical content (not noise or distortion) up to 23-24 kHz

From my own experience? No. Musical content above 20 kHz is the (rare) exception, not the rule. I recently bought an Audio Technica AT-120 as a present for my husband. I then used it to record countless vinyl records from our collection (he loves vinyl, I just kept mine from my youth and bought new ones because of their looks). Out of roughly 40 vinyl records I found just two that had clearly visible content above 20 kHz not created by distortions of any kind. One was Guilty by Streisand, the other The Works by Queen. The latter album is a brand-new pressing. And the content is only there because it's half-speed mastered. Content above 20 kHz is difficult to cut as the needle cutting the father needs to vibrate fast. This creates heat which ages the cutting needle faster. So it's usually avoided and therefore material is bandwith limited before cutting. In case of the Queen album a comparison was easy, as the master for the vinyl was the same one used for the SACD. The only difference was that high frequency content for the vinyl version was attentuated. Still there but softer. Even if we could hear it, it would be pointless as it was almost buried within noise.

Albums from the '80s? For all of them a 20 kHz cut off, indicating a digital 44.1 kHz master, was clearly visible. Some even looked like they had been cut using a digital 32 kHz master. Either that or some early digital synths/samplers were used during production of those albums.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2017-06-08 19:37:58
DVDdoug and Cavaille, thanks for your comments. If you only read my last post and left out the rest of the thread, it might not have been so clear what I was asking - or maybe I wasn't being very clear to begin with.
So, I'll spell it out here:
The wiki on vinyl myths includes the two bullet points I mentioned in my last post. We should strive to only include something in the wiki that can be backed up by actual proof of some sort. What I'm advocating for is that either someone, preferably the person who submitted those two points to the wiki, should show us some realiable source for this (as mentioned earlier, I hadn't been able to find any by a quick Google search), or those two points should be removed from the wiki altogether.

As for your vinyl albums, Cavaille, as I've mentioned earlier, it's my belief that most vinyl albums are cut using a low-pass filter that cuts off the highest frequencies. So the source material might contain supersonic frequencies, but a low-pass filter cuts it off. It varies where the filter starts cutting off, but usually between 15 to 18 kHz is my impression (just an impression). Even the world's biggest CD hater (Michael Fremer) admitted to the use of this filtering (when pressed).

Quote
* Vinyl records commonly (not occasionally) contain musical content (not noise or distortion) up to 23-24 kHz
If you can't hear it, it's not "musical".... It's not even sound...

Without having the master tapes (or digital masters) you can't possibly know if any noise/harmonics were generated as part of the vinyl production/playback process or if they were present acoustically or generated somewhere else in the production chain.  It could also be helpful to know what filtering was used ahead of the cutting lathe.

I made more or less the same point previously. We need actual proof that what is on the vinyl records at 23-24 kHz is actually music and not noise. But even though we can't hear it, it is possible that it is actually musical content - just like the supersonic musical content on certain hi-res files. Personally, I have no interest in hi-res at all (and can't hear the difference), but I'm striving for an accurate wiki on this topic. Just to be clear: If somebody can actually show us proof of the claims, then they should of course be allowed in the wiki.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: polemon on 2017-06-10 04:36:19
What do you make of this? Does this show that vinyl records include content above 20 kHz, as has now been added to the wiki (it wasn't in the wiki a while back).

1. You cannot be sure, that the signal in that part of the spectrum is actually encoded on the Vinyl, it might be coming from the pickup system.

2. You can make whatever that is that signal, by shifting all frequencies downwards, essentially running the vinyl at a slower speed, however this would also reduce the dynamic of the signal, and the tempo of whatever content. If you want to investigate using your own set of ears, you can bandpass the range you're interested in, and then shift the frequencies downwards, into a region that is audible. Frequency shifting is implemented in several audio programs, I think Audacity has one, too - and if not, I'm sure there's a plugin available for that. It shifts the frequencies, but preserves dynamic range and tempo. If you want to go the mathematical route, you could simply work on that signal samples in Matlab and manipulate them there, etc.

For instance to make 20kHz - 25kHz audible, I'd bandpass below 20kHz, at a fairly steep roll-off, and then freq-shift by a factor of 1/2 or so. so 20kHz becomes 10kHz and 25kHz becomes 12.5kHz, kinda squished together, but certainly in an audible range. Now listening back to that, you should be able to discern if the signal is nothing but noise, or if it is actually content which is discernible. As I said before, it would be just about enough to check if it is noise or "something else", actually understanding what sort of signals (or part of those) are encoded there, would be next to impossible.

I did something like this a couple times with "tuning" into sections of radio transmissions within the modulated audio signal, which are data etc. It makes it possible to check if something is different from noise, but that's about it. Techniques like these are frequently employed by HAM radio operators to identify what sort of signal comes through, whether it's AM, FM, SSB, PSM, QAM, or something else, like digital data. It's essentially using a radio set to SSB to "walk the frequency band" and see whatever comes through the noise.

supersonic [...]

...goes at the speed of over Mach 1.0...

FYE: Below audible range: "infrasonic", above audible range: "ultrasonic". When talking about sound the terms "infrasound" and "ultrasound" are used.

"Infrasound" is of course used by the snail people to control our minds and mating behavior, while "ultrasound" is used to impregnate women...

As a side note: one might argue, that once frequency-shifted the signal loses meaning because it only might make sense with its other bands, which have been also shifted, or suppressed. However if all you hear is noise, I'd argue it's just that: noise. When the noise isn't changing at all throughout the recording / sample, I'd argue it has no correlation with any other signal and is simply a very high frequency noise lacking any pattern, adding nothing to the original recording. If you really want to go into details how noise and spectral banded noise floor interacts with signals, especially signals that are below the noise floor, we're getting into technical details of signal processing. However I don't think any of that is really applicable for audio.

I remember doing this sort of "upper band investigation" once (by this time this is about ten years ago), but since my ADC caps at 48kHz, the highest frequencies capable to be represented are 24kHz. So, essentially I was looking at 22kHz - 24kHz coming from the vinyl. When frequency shifting a 5min sample, which included one and a half songs and the silence between the two songs, the noise coming from that had pretty much no discernible pattern. I remember being able to make out the silent section, though. In that section the noise got a bit lower in volume. However, I don't remember hearing the noise "following" the dynamic of the song, or something. It simply stayed at a higher volume than in the pause between the two songs.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-06-10 12:33:18
I do not want to take a stand on how common it is, but here is a test with an 80s digital recording vs. an early 70's synth, made to address the claim that the ultrasound is merely distortion from the medium: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DdxdBNd5Ew
There seems to be way more in the old recording than what can be explained by noise. So as long as the master tape does not limit it, and there is no low-pass filter applied in the cutting process ...

By the way: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue2/mastering.htm , catching a 122 kHz tone by cutting at half-speed.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: StephenPG on 2017-06-10 17:16:33
From 20kHz it's at around -60dB and falling to -108dB as frequency increases, is it possible to hear that?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-06-10 18:19:23
You would need the requisite hair cells, though its going to be a hard sell with all the other energy in the content serving to mask it.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: bennetng on 2017-06-10 19:08:36
Did anyone see Archimago's test? The 3150Hz test tone created a lot of harmonics, which means you can see stuff above 40kHz even if your vinyl master only has 8kHz sample rate.

http://archimago.blogspot.hk/2017/06/musings-measurement-thoughts-on-vinyl.html

About the 1000 times playback test, can I cheat by using a laser turntable? :P
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-06-10 19:25:07
The thing with the video is that you can see a very obvious cutoff with the first album that doesn't exist in the second.  Without getting into what is going on at the far end of the frequency range, it can be clearly deduced that the vinyl medium itself contains information at the transition band.

While I think the wiki article should reference evidence for many of the claims being made, some of them aren't really controversial, so in the edits that I made, I left them.  It should be noted that my edits were only focused on a few portions of the article.  I didn't bother with the 1000x playback, though I am skeptical and think it is at least deserving of a "citation needed" type of annotation.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-06-10 20:54:18
Did some searches concerning wear, and think I found something. It is obvious that too heavy weight can damage a record (here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4_GYfPZfq0 ), but I it is uncontroversial that vinyl records are not immune to abuse, the question is  the converse.

A couple at  https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12931
- The posting from "Klaus R" with 13 literature references (none later than 1980). Reference #12 indicates that wear can be practically eliminated. Reference #13 indictes that dust in the groove is an efficient sander ...
- Same link, posting by user flavio81. Referring to something archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20110713112415/http://www.johana.com/~johana/dorren/cd-4paper4.pdf : the 30 kHz carrier tone for quadrophonic CD4 records survived 500 plays at 4.5 grams, as long as one cleaned the record.

Then I tracked down the source of various claims that an Ortofon OM40 could play for a tens of thousands times with negligible wear: http://www.faktiskt.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3018&start=330
Search for 2006-12-13. Ingvar Öhman, former president of AES Sweden. They engraved a record with one single locking groove, so the same groove would repeat 33 1/3 times a minute, listened to it against the master tape, and then they left it to play repeatedly for a day and night (that is 48000 plays!) without any chance to cool off. Some styli did cause wear in two or three minutes (sixty to hundred spins then).


As for the frequency response, I agree with Greynol (the latest post) here: there is an obvious cutoff when the master has one, and not on the other. Now, whether that is audible, being in a range generally thought to be inaudible, is a different question.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-06-10 21:25:56
Let there be no mistake: the extension of harmonic content up to Nyquist in that video coming from the master and being "stored" on the medium is also a different question.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2017-06-12 00:17:06
Greynol, I agree that there should be a "citation needed" flag for those points I brought up. If you know (or can find) the person who put those things in the wiki, maybe he can shed some light on it.

The things Porcus brings up seems to say that certain equipment will damage a vinyl record quickly, whereas other equipment won't damage the record, but it was still a bit unclear to me if those sources verify the claim that a record can be played 1000 times without showing distortion.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-06-27 12:30:49
I'm bumping this topic after a long break, as I forgot about the thread.

I think Greynol is mainly the person editing the vinyl myths wiki entry, so hopefully he reads this. In any case, I still find the following quoted section a bit confusing and contradictory (I highlighted what I found most confusing/contradictory), and I didn't see any references to these claims (which are fairly recent). A quick Google search didn't reveal anything that backed up the claims of "common 23-24 kHz audio content at significant amplitude on vinyl records" (but a more thorough search might reveal this). I still haven't found any concrete evidence that shows that vinyl records have actual musical content to 23-24 kHz, where it is shown that the peaks above 20 kHz are actually music present on the master it was cut from, rather than just noise or distortion.

Quote
(from source sans formal citation)
Quote
tests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wear


I think that it is possible to do tests where low frequency tones on vinyl retain some semblance of their original integrity over multiple playings. 

One problem is that the original integrity of even low frequency signals on vinyl is not that good. About a decade ago when I had clients who wanted vinyl transcribed I assembled a vinyl playback system and bought some of the best test records could find as new products and also legacy test LPs that were NOS.  I don't recall ever seeing nonlinear distortion that was much below 0.2% under ideal conditions.  While that may be hard to hear, by modern digital standards it is piss-poor.  Things were worse as the frequencies rose.

Playing test records provided technical indications of other problems that are likely to be audible, including noise and FM distortion (Jitter or if you will Flutter and Wow). There will be audible low frequency FM distortion if the record is not nearly perfectly physically flat and centered. Neither are universal absent  and one or both are common.

There is additional FM distortion due to the friction of the needle in the groove varying its drag as the program material changes.

There is additional FM distortion that is due to the nearly universal  use of offset (angled) tone arms.  Note that near the end of the mainstream vinyl era a number of straight line tracking record players were sold by mainstream audo manufacurers, but as the LP became a niche product, these disappeared off of the market to a very large degree.

Many cartridges have magnetic circuits that fail to be sufficiently  uniform over the area where the coil or magnet travels and there will also be amplitude modulation as the magnet or coil moves about due to off center punching and records that are insufficiently flat.

I have also listened to presentations by collectors of legacy audio gear who experimented with CD4 records and decoders. The presenter described assembling a modern vinyl playback system with a modern cartridge and stylus that was designed to optimize ultrasonic response. They were successful in obtaining an indication of ultrasonic carrier detection on first playing. After something like 10 playings, the indication was lost. The presenters conclusion was that the ultrasonic content had been worn off in just a few playing's.  I believe that this carrier was in the range of 35 KHz. 

I understand that depending on stylus shape there is a phenomenon called "Pinch Effect" where the groove requires an impossibly narrow stylus to be tracked accurately  because modulation causes the groove to turn which reduces its cross section as seen by the stylus  in the plan view. For modern elliptical designs the frequencies where pinch effect becomes significant may be above 12-13 KHz. Pinch Effect reduces media life, causes nonlinear distortion, and reduces stylus  life.


As far as high frequency content goes, with a few notable exceptions almost all LPs were cut from either analog tape or digital masters.

The best of the digital masters of the day generally  had 48-50 KHz sample rates, so obviously content above 24-25 KHz would be impossible.

The overwhelmingly most common way in the day  to produce  recordings and cut a  lacquer involved 15 ips magnetic tape. Ultimately the high frequency band pass of these tapes was limited by the playback head gap. Making this gap smaller required precision but also increased the probability of introducing  amplitude variations above 10 KHz and also drop outs or loss of useful output for brief periods. Both of these effects are easy to see using test tones and an oscilloscope, and can be audible. Drop outs of any significant duration are so audible as to ruin the work. For these reasons professional tape machines had playback heads that restricted the high frequency band pass to about 24 KHz @ - 3 dB.

So a LP high frequency power bandwidth started being significantly limited in ways that were never practical to correct or compensate for  above 12 or 13 KHz, and completely died above 24 or 25 KHz for lack of program material coming from the master recording, whether digital or analog.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-06-28 15:18:38
I think we're all getting a pedantic here.

I have pressed a number of vinyl records over the course of ~10 years.  Most of the master are from 96Khz/24bit or 192Khz/24bit recordings (don't freak out over the high sample rates, they are exceedingly high in case I wish to further process the final recordings).

So I am in a position where I can validate a master digital file against a vinyl pressing (all are 33RPM unfortunately).  Now, if we could reach some sort of consensus about how I post results of measurements, I am happy to do so.  The music does contain frequencies will above 20Khz, as they are all made from rather old and dysfunctional analogue synthesizers.

Also, please let me be clear that I am not implying that I am interested in frequencies above 20Khz, merely that they can be represented in a vinyl disc.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-06-28 17:00:21
That won't be necessary. The video Porcus linked in reply #27 clearly demonstrates that vinyl is capable of preserving frequencies that extend beyond what a typical adult is capable of hearing.

But if you want to, feel free.  I'd like to see how much of the ultra high frequency content is real, rather than harmonic distortion, though a band-limited master would be the best way to check for that.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-06-29 10:20:53
I'd like to see how much of the ultra high frequency content is real, rather than harmonic distortion, though a band-limited master would be the best way to check for that.

I can also do that this evening...
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: apastuszak on 2017-06-29 14:05:09
To see whether any of this ultrasonic stuff is just noise, or if it's actually produced by the music, would we not need to see the spectrum of the master tape?  If the master tape doesn't go this high, then it's obviously the production process that is introducing these ultrasonic frequencies.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-06-29 14:43:45
Full disclosure: It doesn't seem like I'm going to be in a very good mood today and should probably not be posting.

It really annoys me when people post without paying attention to what has been said previously. I mentioned post #27 once already, but it seems you couldn't be bothered.

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,113365.msg940575.html#msg940575
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-06-29 22:12:51
That won't be necessary. The video Porcus linked in reply #27 clearly demonstrates that vinyl is capable of preserving frequencies that extend beyond what a typical adult is capable of hearing.

But if you want to, feel free.  I'd like to see how much of the ultra high frequency content is real, rather than harmonic distortion, though a band-limited master would be the best way to check for that.

I can post an audio sample and a list of my gear (turntable etc.) but I don't see that as necessary.  An FFT of a vinyl master cut from a 44.1 render is attached to this post.  You can see a harsh cut at 22.05Khz, but also some sharp spike above that during transients.  I found this to be very interesting.

I can do the other one too, I mean show you a master of a 96Khz file, and compare it to a vinyl FFT cut from that.  It holds the high frequencies remarkably well...

Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-06-30 00:03:37
It isn't so much that it "looks" like stuff is preserved; it's the fact that the medium and playback chain put stuff there that didn't exist before.

You could look at it like SBR in AAC.

Am I saying it's all discarded and replaced with garbage?  No, of course not.

Thanks for doing this.  Hopefully it will lead to further inquiry.

If you haven't already, check out the video Porcus linked.  You might also want to take a look at a dynamic spectrogram as was done in that video in addition to the spectrograph.

Do you have any square waves (properly synthesized and band-limited, of course) that were pressed to vinyl?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-06-30 08:06:08
It isn't so much that it "looks" like stuff is preserved; it's the fact that the medium and playback chain put stuff there that didn't exist before.

You could look at it like SBR in AAC.

Am I saying it's all discarded and replaced with garbage?  No, of course not.

Thanks for doing this.  Hopefully it will lead to further inquiry.

If you haven't already, check out the video Porcus linked.  You might also want to take a look at a dynamic spectrogram as was done in that video in addition to the spectrograph.

Do you have any square waves (properly synthesized and band-limited, of course) that were pressed to vinyl?

I don’t, but send me exactly what you want and I’ll shoehorn it into the next thing I press. And also, I’m reasonably sure that it’s the payback chain that added the noise rather than the medium- not that it makes much difference either way
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: apastuszak on 2017-06-30 17:11:44
The content above 20 Khz would have to be very quiet. Considering the limited dynamic range of vinyl vs other music formats (60-80 dBs), I don't think it would capture anything that quiet and still be able to get the loudest part of the recorded song.

But I will admit I am no expert in this area.

Even if it does somehow capture those frequencies, you can't hear them anyway.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-07-01 12:06:55
60-80 dB of dynamic range is actually very good.  Granted, it's dwarfed by a good digital system, but 80dB of dynamic range is still overkill for music (in my opinion, of course).
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Miramis on 2017-07-01 14:50:06
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range#Audio) “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: apastuszak on 2017-07-01 17:48:40
I agree that the dynamic range of vinyl is good.  But is it good enough to capture the super quiet frequencies above 20 khz?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-07-01 20:25:19
I agree that the dynamic range of vinyl is good.  But is it good enough to capture the super quiet frequencies above 20 khz?

What does it matter?  We can't hear them. I certainly can't.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Speedskater on 2017-07-01 22:59:12
While some people may be able to hear above 20 kHz, none can hear the super quiet frequencies above 20 kHz.
Of those that can hear frequencies above 20 kHz, none can hear them in the presence of louder lower frequency sounds.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-02 08:06:58
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range#Audio) “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measue the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme.  Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: board on 2017-07-14 19:16:16
Arnie, thanks for your long response, and thanks to everybody else for chiming in as well :-).

Arnie, in your opinion, should the follow sentence then be removed from the wiki on vinyl myths?
"tests have been conducted which deonstrate that a record can be played up to 1000 times before there is any measurable increase in distortion as a result of record wear."

Does anybody else have an opinion on that matter?

For the rest of you: Thanks for keeping this topic alive :-).
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 2017-07-14 20:42:12
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range#Audio) “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measue the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme.  Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.


Something like an RIAA curve, perhaps? :-)
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: pdq on 2017-07-14 20:48:30
Huh? The RIAA curve is used to apply pre-emphasis in some parts of the spectrum during recording so that corresponding de-emphasis can be applied during playback. Its goal is flat response within the audible range.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-14 21:31:47
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range#Audio) “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measure the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme.  Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.


Something like an RIAA curve, perhaps? :-)

My discussion presumes that the RIAA curve is in place.

Since I'm talking about low frequencies, the RIAA curve with about 20 dB boost at 20 Hz would be in the wrong direction.

However, the development of equalization curves was initially tasked with the goal of reducing hiss, and it does a lot of that.

If there weren't a kink in the midrange (formal name: Turnover) the RIAA playback curve would be a constant velocity curve.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

"
Equalization practice for electrical recordings dates to the beginning of the art. In 1926 Joseph P. Maxwell and Henry C. Harrison from Bell Telephone Laboratories disclosed that the recording pattern of the Western Electric "rubber line" magnetic disc cutter had a constant velocity characteristic. This meant that as frequency increased in the treble, recording amplitude decreased. Conversely, in the bass as frequency decreased, recording amplitude increased. Therefore, it was necessary to attenuate the bass frequencies below about 250 Hz, the bass turnover point, in the amplified microphone signal fed to the recording head. Otherwise, bass modulation became excessive and overcutting took place, with the cutter into the next record groove. When played back electrically with a magnetic pickup having a smooth response in the bass region, a complementary boost in amplitude at the bass turnover point was necessary. G. H. Miller in 1934 reported that when complementary boost at the turnover point was used in radio broadcasts of records, the reproduction was more realistic and many of the musical instruments stood out in their true form.
"

Initially, equalization only affected the range below 250 Hz. Roll off the lows during recording to protect the cutter head from being overdriven, and boost the lows below 250 Hz during playback to restore more natural sound quality.

That got them close enough to something like fidelity so that hiss became the next major problem to solve.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-19 20:31:54
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range#Audio) “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measue the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme.  Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.

What was your procedure?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2017-07-19 22:54:19
To me, the theoretical or ideal S/N of a new-pristine record is meaningless!   Noise 60dB down would be great (if we didn't have digital to compare to ;)  ).     But an average  noise level of -60dB is NOT good enough...  Vinyl noise is "spikey" an it's those noise spikes/peaks that are most annoying.

In the real world, most records out there are 30 or 40 years old (or older) with plenty of clearly-audible "snap", "crackle", and "pop", and I doubt the noise on most older records was never 60db down, even when they were new.   (I've got some CDs that are about 30 years old and all of the CDs I've purchased over the years sound as good as new except I remember two that I had to replace.)   

You'd probably be lucky to pick-up a random record that didn't have at least one noise spike 20dB down, or worse.   And if you are unlucky, the noise spike comes where the signal-level is low, making the signal-to-noise ratio even worse!
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-20 12:14:31
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range#Audio) “Vinyl microgroove phonograph records typically yield 55–65 dB, though the first play of the higher-fidelity outer rings can achieve a dynamic range of 70 dB.”

Based on my experiences with trying to measure the performance of vinyl, the only way to get 70 dB SNR is to use some sort of a weighting scheme.  Broadband 70 dB seems impossible in the face of the inherent low frequency disturbances that are part and parcel of vinyl playback.

What was your procedure?

(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges  are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it.  Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: wqcr on 2017-07-21 09:57:05
Instruments are designed to produce sound in the normal range audible by humans, not in the ultrasonic range.
But they indeed produce sound above 20k :) - https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: KozmoNaut on 2017-07-21 10:04:34
Instruments are designed to produce sound in the normal range audible by humans, not in the ultrasonic range.
But they indeed produce sound above 20k :) - https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.

It's only ever relevant when messing around with the sound, it's irrelevant for a distribution format.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: wqcr on 2017-07-21 10:18:06
It's only ever relevant when messing around with the sound, it's irrelevant for a distribution format.
At times only the distribution format is available to music editors - and in this instance, higher sample rate (more captured frequency content) could prove to be useful when AV syncing - especially with PAL (25fps) -> NTSC (23.997fps) conversions.
Though in general I agree - speed manipulation of more than 10% above and below the source material is extremely rare, and for the rest of the cases, 48kHz (approx 23kHz captured) already has enough headroom.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-21 12:27:29
Instruments are designed to produce sound in the normal range audible by humans, not in the ultrasonic range.
But they indeed produce sound above 20k :) - https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

Just about everything produces some sound > 20 KHz. So what?

Quote
There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.

Seems relevant to almost nobody. Seems irrelevant to 99.9+% of the people who listen to  music.

Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: wqcr on 2017-07-21 12:38:32
Just about everything produces some sound > 20 KHz. So what?
So what? I'm certain that instruments are not specifically designed to be producing sound only in audible spectrum perceived by humans. Yes, the extra frequency content could be called byproduct of their design, that however does not negate its presence.
Quote
There are practical advantages to this - capturing those extra frequencies help to retain high frequency content in case of speed manipulation of source material.
Seems relevant to almost nobody. Seems irrelevant to 99.9+% of the people who listen to  music.
Is that to be considered personal approximation, or statistically relevant result based on evidence?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-21 16:37:33

Quote
What was your procedure?

(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges  are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it.  Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.

I don't know how you could set up a Rega arm well. The arm lacks some essential adjustments, making proper adjustment with most cartridges almost impossible.

If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say, its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition. You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.

Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results? Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.

What are the legacy cartridges for?? The cantilever on any cartridge really isn't going to perform properly after 4-5 years!
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2017-07-21 18:12:44
Quote
If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say, its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition.
He said it sucks compared to digital.   I said something similar.    And, I'd say it sucks if you're bothered by noise.

Quote
You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.
"Bandwidth" isn't the same as frequency response, and there are differences in frequency response with different cartridges.   Maybe "all high-end cartridges sound alike"...  I don't know...   But I'd be surprised if that were true...

Quote
Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results? Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.
How in the heck do you listen to a record without the "phono section"?  It's generally not the weakest link but it's part of the problem.

And, I believe Arny said he removes the worst ticks & crackle, so that's giving an "unfair" advantage to the record, and making the results appear better than they really are.

Quote
or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition.
I'd set the bar higher...  The average record is dreadful compared to digital, and records in dreadful condition are "unlistenable" to me...   I'd rather listen to silence than to a scratchy-old record.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-07-21 19:51:56
Man, if these last several pages don't underscore the inconvenience and inferiority of vinyl, I don't know what does.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-21 20:50:09


Quote
What was your procedure?


(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges  are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it.  Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.

Quote
I don't know how you could set up a Rega arm well. The arm lacks some essential adjustments, making proper adjustment with most cartridges almost impossible.


Details, please

I just googled up 10 articles on the Rega arm, and while they recommended upgrades of one kind or the other, none criticized the items you mentioned.  Here's your challenge. I'm a degreed engineer with about 50 years of experience with mechanical mechanisms in gneral and tone arms specifically. Convince me!


Since I was not born yesterday, I fully expected your response. Needless to say, its what you get under these circumstances.

BTW, I'm holding a spoiler or two in reserve, to see if you know what you are talking about. Yyou've already tripped over one of them - you have not said anything about the other three turntables that I have. Obviously, the ION is a give-awy, but that leaves 2 that you seem to have no dirt to dish out about.


Quote
If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say,

So far you have not given any support to that claim. Until you do, it has no credibility.

Quote
its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition. You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.

Explain to me how fresh test records played with fresh cartridges of good quality be in dreadful condition. Credible evidence would take the form of technical proof of meaningfully better performance. Seeing none...




Quote
Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results?

I told you how I did that, but it seems like it shot right over your head.

Quote
Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.

If I had a phono section that was so bad that its noise or distortion drowned out or even audibly  affected the copious noise that is inherent in LP playback, I'd agree with you that it was a serious problem.

Quote
What are the legacy cartridges for?? The cantilever on any cartridge really isn't going to perform properly after 4-5 years!

I guess you don't know that cantalevers  have a virtually unlimited life if you don't damage them mechanically. 

I guess you don't have a clue that you tell a cartridge that is too old by means of simple measurements with test records.

And I'm supposed to pretend that you are some kind of authority? If you want credibility around here you have to earn it. We all know that people who post under aliases can claim to be anybody they want and nobody can disprove it, until they fail to provide information that the person in question is supposed to have. 

The challenge to produce is up to you, but so far not so much.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-21 20:59:01
Man, if these last several pages don't underscore the inconvenience and inferiority of vinyl, I don't know what does.

Agreed.


The thing that mystifies me is how hard it is to find an LP advocate who knows what they are talking about.

For example, this claim that cantilevers wear out after a few years.  Cantalevers are little pieces of metal that can be bent and broken, but don't receive any wear at all in normal use.  When they are bent or broken typically the cartridge won't track at all .

Cartidges are relatively simple mechanisms. When they go bad, the results always show up in simple measurements, usually pretty grossly, even gross by LP standards.

There are other parts of a cartridge that do wear out or even sometimes go bad while in storage, But our vinyl expert does not seem to know what they are.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: kode54 on 2017-07-21 22:51:49
You can also end up with weird tracking issues like that one time it took me a full minute to notice that I hadn't removed the cover from the cartridge!
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-07-21 23:33:10
Isn't that part of the ritual?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-21 23:53:42


Quote
What was your procedure?


(1) Obtain a collection of both legacy and modern test records. In many cases obtain 2 copies, one for general use, one for very limited use for tests that were done for "The record".

(2) Obtain several turntables ranging from Ion to Dual to Rega to VPI

(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

(4) Do needle drops of selected tracks and analyze them to ensure tone arms and cartridges  are optimized

(5) Take the most promising results and duplicate tests using test records from the reserved group.

(6) Typically unless it mattered, I did some pretty merciless weighting of the results to give vinyl the best chance of developing results that people would not dismiss out of hand because they were so horrible. I edited out tics and pops by hand.

Generally what I found was that once I got the Rega set up well, it was hard to improve on it.  Oh yes, and that compared to digital, vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad.

Quote
I don't know how you could set up a Rega arm well. The arm lacks some essential adjustments, making proper adjustment with most cartridges almost impossible.

Quote
Details, please

I just googled up 10 articles on the Rega arm, and while they recommended upgrades of one kind or the other, none criticized the items you mentioned.  Here's your challenge. I'm a degreed engineer with about 50 years of experience with mechanical mechanisms in gneral and tone arms specifically. Convince me!


Since I was not born yesterday, I fully expected your response. Needless to say, its what you get under these circumstances.

BTW, I'm holding a spoiler or two in reserve, to see if you know what you are talking about. Yyou've already tripped over one of them - you have not said anything about the other three turntables that I have. Obviously, the ION is a give-awy, but that leaves 2 that you seem to have no dirt to dish out about.
The Rega arm is pretty well set up if you use their cartridge. If you don't, you have a problem. You can't adjust the arm height; VTA is not adjustable. No adjustment for azimuth. No antiskate. Bearings in the plane of the arm tube rather than at the LP surface. And so on. Its built to a price point but I think the arm on the Technics SL1200 of yore is a better arm.

Quote
If your vinyl setup sucks as bad as you say,
Quote
So far you have not given any support to that claim. Until you do, it has no credibility.
I refer you to your own text above, to wit:  "vinyl sucks. It measures so bad that it even sounds bad. "  If your LP setup is sounding bad, well, that sucks! It should sound great, with not a lot of difference between it and digital. But you are quite consistent in saying that is sounds much worse, which suggests poor setup or an inferior rig, or...?


Quote
its likely that there is something wrong with the setup or the LPs you have are in dreadful condition. You should not be hearing any differences in bandwidth for example, nor any distortion in any passages.

Explain to me how fresh test records played with fresh cartridges of good quality be in dreadful condition. Credible evidence would take the form of technical proof of meaningfully better performance. Seeing none...

Well you could have left them out on the dining room table so the 14 cats you keep walked all over them, and then scratched them in the way to the turntable... I have no idea, just that it can happen (BTW, what is your test LP, when and where did you get it?). What's meant by a 'cartridge of good quality'? That sounds really subjective to me. $100? $500? $4000?  Regardless of cost or 'quality' it could be damaged or poorly set up (that's my current theory, glad to have you shoot it down- what do you use for a protractor?).

Quote
Regardless, wouldn't you also want to subtract the noise of the phono section from your results?

I told you how I did that, but it seems like it shot right over your head.
Or I just didn't see it, which isn't the same thing.


Quote
Otherwise the measurements might be skewed. Some phono sections are -85 db and some are -55db.

If I had a phono section that was so bad that its noise or distortion drowned out or even audibly  affected the copious noise that is inherent in LP playback, I'd agree with you that it was a serious problem.
Quote

What's meant by 'copious noise'? QRP makes pressings that are quiet enough that if your phono section is making -75 db, its the noise floor not the LP.
Quote
What are the legacy cartridges for?? The cantilever on any cartridge really isn't going to perform properly after 4-5 years!

I guess you don't know that cantalevers  have a virtually unlimited life if you don't damage them mechanically. 

I guess you don't have a clue that you tell a cartridge that is too old by means of simple measurements with test records.
Hmm. So without any idea on your part, you think I don't use test records?

?? if the cantilever is not the problem, and the stylus is not the problem, are you saying that a cartridge can get too old by some other means? What would that be? Sounds like you are suggesting that the coil is failing, something in the cartridge body?

Quote
And I'm supposed to pretend that you are some kind of authority? If you want credibility around here you have to earn it. We all know that people who post under aliases can claim to be anybody they want and nobody can disprove it, until they fail to provide information that the person in question is supposed to have. 

The challenge to produce is up to you, but so far not so much.

I really don't care what you pretend. Its out of my purview. I don't pretend that you are an authority either; maybe you have credibilty on some boards, clearly on others you do not. That's the way it is on the web. I was just asking some questions I actually  wanted answered but you seem more focused on personal attacks. Take it down a notch; maybe don't take it personally and just answer the question??

A correction:
FWIW I didn't say cantilevers 'wear out'. I said they won't **perform**. I think something is perishing, but I don't know for sure. I know its not the stylus as under the microscope the examples I've seen have had plenty of life and I know its not the cartridge body, as replacing the stylus/cantilever assembly fixes the mistracking. That really only leaves the cantilever and since its been undamaged in the examples I've seen, that suggests something is perishing.

If you could do me a slight favor- don't nest your responses?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: kode54 on 2017-07-22 01:48:19
Isn't that part of the ritual?

It was my first LP digitizing session with my dad's USB turntable. I'm just glad I didn't destroy the record with that "trick".

Oh yeah, and I'm already violating all sense of "preservation" by using a USB turntable, and also recording at 48/16.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: stephan_g on 2017-07-22 03:07:17
It was my first LP digitizing session with my dad's USB turntable. I'm just glad I didn't destroy the record with that "trick".
Stylus covers tend to have a huge surface area when compared to a stylus and would only be riding on top of the surface anyway, so I wouldn't expect very much to be happening really.
Oh yeah, and I'm already violating all sense of "preservation" by using a USB turntable, and also recording at 48/16.
Could be worse. It could be one that's not only a cheap hollow plastic POS but only sampling at 22 kHz to boot! No kidding, those exist.

USB turntables are a convenience product, and as such manufacturers will be inclined to make them as cheaply as possible (see e.g. tea bags or fast food). The first ones also tended to be made by companies usually churning out novelty crap and the like rather than actual hi-fi makers. That's a solid basis for a bad reputation right there. Not to mention that you would have been able to pick up a decent hi-fi belt drive job from the '80s (maybe even a direct drive) plus a usable phonopre and acceptable USB soundcard for well under $100 US, too (and achieve much better results with that) - at least a few years ago.

We did decent vinyl rips 20 years ago in 16/44 on 16-bit ISA jobs, so who am I kidding, but if you don't feel like pushing your luck with the anti-alias filters on cheapie ADCs, I'd recommend using 96 kHz anyway (if available) and downsampling later if needed. Looking at e.g. some Realtek onboard chips, I've seen ADC responses that didn't drop appreciably until above fs/2, whereas good software resamplers are pretty much perfect - not to mention what seems to be high jitter in 44.1 kHz and multiples (manifesting itself in degraded SNR and apparent aliasing).
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: splice on 2017-07-22 06:02:48
Re "cantilever life": It's likely Atmasphere is referring to the elastic polymer ("rubber") block that supports the cantilever. In some cases, as it ages it can either turn to "goo" (the cantilever collapses and the cartridge scrapes the record), or harden (the compliance decreases, causing tracking problems). 
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-22 12:25:47
Quote from: Arny
I guess you don't have a clue that you tell a cartridge that is too old by means of simple measurements with test records.
Hmm. So without any idea on your part, you think I don't use test records?

OK, maybe you play Frisbee with test records. But if you had any relevant technical evidence it must be horrible because you're doing a fine job of keeping it secret.

Quote
?? if the cantilever is not the problem, and the stylus is not the problem, are you saying that a cartridge can get too old by some other means? What would that be? Sounds like you are suggesting that the coil is failing, something in the cartridge body?

There are at least as many ways for a cartridge to fail as there are separate things in it.

I've attached a diagram of a moving magnet cartridge from:

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttcartridge.html

to describe the components of a moving coil cartridge. It may not be complete for every moving magnet cartridge as moving magnet  cartridges vary a bit. For example there is a bit of music wire in some moving magnet cartridges that may run from the armature to the body of the cartridge.  It can help stabilize the cantilever's longitudinal position and possibly tune its response.

The common  components of the cartridge are, and how they can fail:

Body - holds parts in alignment - can become cracked or worn (rare)

Tip - traces the groove - can become worn, broken or broken off and missing (common)

Cantilever - connects the tip to the suspension and the magnet - can become bent or broken (common)

Suspension - allows cantilever and related parts to move. Damps resonances - can loose elasticity, damping or strength. Can harden - can affect tracking and frequency response (common, and hidden from sight)

Magnet - part of electrical generator - can loose magnetism, effectively bricking the cartridge with no change in appearance (rare)

Coils - other part of electrical generator, generates electrical signal - can become shorted or open (common)

Music wire - if present, it may helps stabilize and tune the motion of the armature - can become detached or broken (rare)

Quote
And I'm supposed to pretend that you are some kind of authority?

It would be bad for your pride. To be avoided at all costs. It could be good for your knowledge and wisdom.

Quote
I really don't care what you pretend. Its out of my purview. I don't pretend that you are an authority either; maybe you have credibilty on some boards, clearly on others you do not. That's the way it is on the web. I was just asking some questions I actually  wanted answered but you seem more focused on personal attacks.

You invite them by being dismissive and unresponsive.  I've provided you with a lot of technical information, but apparently it is not sinking in because it does not agree with your personal agenda and biases.

Quote
A correction:
FWIW I didn't say cantilevers 'wear out'. I said they won't **perform**.

No correction. The words are closely related. I say "worn out", you say "won't perform". Any reasonable judge would wonder where is the beef?

Quote
I think something is perishing, but I don't know for sure.

A general lack of sure knowledge seems to be one of your problems. I ask you questions and to provide evidence, you don't or can't produce. You drop many hints about your lack of knowledge.

Quote
I know its not the stylus as under the microscope the examples I've seen have had plenty of life and I know its not the cartridge body, as replacing the stylus/cantilever assembly fixes the mistracking. That really only leaves the cantilever and since its been undamaged in the examples I've seen, that suggests something is perishing.

I will repeat myself with a little more detail.  The ultimate means of judging a cartridge is to objectively and subjectively test it and compare it to known good gear with as few biases as possible.

I've been flogging vinyl since 1959 or earlier, and as you should have noticed by now I am familiar with the gear, how it works, and many of the scientific and technical papers, both professional and consumer about it.

In my discussion of the components of a moving magnet cartridge which is similar to moving coil and moving iron cartridges, I discuss what is inside a cartridge and how it relates to performance. You don't seem to even know what half the parts are! Yet you want to pass judgement on my expertise. LOL!

Quote
If you could do me a slight favor- don't nest your responses?

I guess you haven't noticed that the form and content of my answers are driven by your statements.  Also, it is considered to be good form to quote the statements being responded to and then answer them.  That's what I do. If you don't do that, the answers seem to come out of nowhere and are mysterious without reading previous posts, and trying to put all of the disconnected pieces back together.

That's how I roll - try to eliminate or reduce mysteries, best I can.  Please try it, some time!
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-24 19:22:02
Quote
That's how I roll


How you troll is more like it.

However, the diagram and the comment by Splice actually show the problem. I was hoping you would land on it without my help. But indeed the suspension of the cantilever is the problem. It only lasts a few years and then the cartridge does not perform. This is easily seen using a test record. I've treated a few with chemistry which helped a little, but once that suspension is gone the stylus is shot, even if the cartridge has never been used. So you can't store them- you have to use them.

One thing that has consistently bothered me on a lot of these threads is the constant comment about ticks and pops. I don't experience them all that much at home, but I try to take care of my LPs by storing them upright, without a lot of pressure on them (which leads to 'ring wear' on the cover). I have a Nitty Gritty, but I've not used it in years. I mostly just use a carbon fiber dust brush. The thing is, when a lacquer goes to press, the test press that comes back has to be played to detect any defects in the process. Quite often that means ticks and pops. A good press won't have any and neither will the pressing run. Last night I was playing an LP by Of Monsters and Men, on marbled pink vinyl, and not a single tick or pop on all four sides.

So where do the ticks and pops come from? One source is poor handling, another is a poorly set up pickup, which can damage the grooves. Some equalizers can exacerbate ticks and pops, raising a tick or pop event from inaudible to audible. This is caused by unstable equalizers. In a nutshell, if the equalizer is prone to RFI (which can include ultrasonic and RF energy caused by the resonance of the tank circuit caused by the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tone arm cable) then its likely that it will also exacerbate ticks and pops.

Now one area often overlooked and related is cartridge loading. The loading of a low output moving coil will have no effect on the output of the cartridge but it can have a huge effect on the tank circuit its driving! This is why the loading resistor can be important. If you can hear the effects of the loading resistor (and you have a LOMC cartridge), it means that your preamp is unstable.

Some interesting reading- note the comments by Jonathan Carr:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?15077-Cartridge-Loading-A-Misnomer

OTOH high output moving magnet cartridges have much higher inductance, so the loading can affect them directly at audio frequencies. For this reason any high output cartridge should be loaded for best response and the generic input impedance of 47K isn't going to do the job. If left untreated, a MM cartridge will often have some sort of peak in the upper end of the audio passband, where ticks and pops often reside. Its worth it to look into this matter.

Jim Hagerman does a great job of describing cartridge loading issues in this article:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html




Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-25 02:25:44
Quote
That's how I roll


However, the diagram and the comment by Splice actually show the problem. I was hoping you would land on it without my help.

You call me out for trolling when you just plain outright ignore what I post and then claim falsely that I never posted it?

I previously posted the following:

"Suspension - allows cantilever and related parts to move. Damps resonances - can loose elasticity, damping or strength. Can harden - can affect tracking and frequency response (common, and hidden from sight)"

What is unclear about:

" ...can loose elasticity, damping or strength. Can harden - can affect tracking and frequency response (common, and hidden from sight)"

To break it out further:

I said that the suspension can loose elasticity.

I said that the suspension can loose its ability to damp vibrations.

I said that the suspension can loose strength.

I said that the suspension can harden.

How much clearer do I have to be about the potential of the suspension to degrade?



Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-07-25 03:46:15
However, the diagram and the comment by Splice actually show the problem.
What diagram did Splice show, exactly?!?

I was hoping you would land on it without my help.
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?

You know, Arny did allude to the answer before Splice ever contributed to the topic...
There are other parts of a cartridge that do wear out or even sometimes go bad while in storage, But our vinyl expert does not seem to know what they are.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-25 18:56:54
Quote
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?
Yes. I knew I was not mistaken. I've seen plenty of cartridges that lost their zeal.

I stopped reading his posts for the most part. This forum does not have a function to put someone on ignore. So you have to do it manually, but in scanning the pages one cannot help seeing some of his text. His habitual personal attacks (not just me by any stretch) make it not worth reading his posts. Proper decorum is 'attack the argument, not the poster' on forums where decorum is de rigueur.

The whole thing is a bit of a trick as he is also the one that spews the most misinformation about the LP. Its like herding cats.

But, after his trying to make me wrong on this point, apparently now there is a consensus that indeed a cartridge cannot be stored indefinitely and that it will not perform after a few years, mostly on account of the cantilever and its suspension. I had a Micro Benz that made it 10 years one time; not sure how long it would have lasted as one of my employees sheared off the stylus.

The point was before this diversion was if you are using an older cartridge as part of your evaluation of the LP, you are likely to come to a false conclusion. 
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-07-25 19:42:00
A false conclusion that what, >20kHz content can't be found on vinyl?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-25 19:51:43

But, after his trying to make me wrong on this point,

I didn't make anybody wrong - most exercixe their rights to do-it-yourself on that regard.

Quote
apparently now there is a consensus that indeed a cartridge cannot be stored indefinitely

Of course, that is a straw man. Nobody is silly enough to think that everything is forever.

Furthermore, that's another straw man, because I never said such a thing.

What I was trying to convey was the idea that the sonic faults of cartridges have measurable symptoms and that there is often  even some kind of correlation between the measurable fault, and the audible consequences.

I'd go so far as to say that if a cartridge has good trackability in standard trackability tests, good measured frequency response, and distortion that is in the expected range all other things considered, it can be reasonably expected to sound about as good as vinyl can sound.

Quote
and that it will not perform after a few years, mostly on account of the cantilever and its suspension.

Cantilever useful age is about indefinite, barring mechanical damage. Suspension useful age depends on its design, materials, and working and storage environments and can be distressingly short if any of the above are sufficiently suboptimal.

Quote
I had a Micro Benz that made it 10 years one time; not sure how long it would have lasted as one of my employees sheared off the stylus.

What reliable evidence do you have to support that claim?

Quote
The point was before this diversion was if you are using an older cartridge as part of your evaluation of the LP, you are likely to come to a false conclusion.

Another straw man argument. I never said that  I  based my conclusions entirely on older cartridges.




Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-25 22:02:16
Quote
What reliable evidence do you have to support that claim?

The employee that did it is still with us.

Quote
Another straw man argument. I never said that  I  based my conclusions entirely on older cartridges.

I did not say you did, but you *did* say that you use older cartridges (emphasis added):
Quote
(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

-Which is what started this nonsense; the stawman of course is I didn't say what you based your conclusions on. Can you admit that (a correct answer will be a simple yes or no)?

I was simply pointing out that the cantilever would be shot, and a page later, apparently there is consensus. Since we both knew that fact going in, why not answer the question I originally asked which was why would you use a legacy cartridge when you know full well that it wasn't performing to spec?? Was that obfuscation so you didn't have to answer the original question?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-25 22:51:21
Quote
What reliable evidence do you have to support that claim?

The employee that did it is still with us.

Might mean something if the nature of the evidence was given.

Quote
Another straw man argument. I never said that  I  based my conclusions entirely on older cartridges.

I did not say you did, but you *did* say that you use older cartridges (emphasis added):
Quote
(3) Obtain a number of legacy and current cartridges

[/quote]
You said that you used legacy and current cartridges, but someone my results are invalid and yours are valid.

Quote
[
-Which is what started this nonsense; the stawman of course is I didn't say what you based your conclusions on. Can you admit that (a correct answer will be a simple yes or no)?

Yet another straw man.

Quote
I was simply pointing out that the cantilever would be shot,

Which is a global generalization, and is false. If you had said that the cantilever might be shot, you at least have a chance of making a potentially true statement. But you picked the wrong word. 

I counter argued that if any of those things happened, they would show up in the measurements.

 But you, seemingly being Hell=bent on proving that my measurements incorrect,and  despite the fact that that others have obtained similar results  many times, wanted more than the situation allowed.

It appears that so much of this discussion likes in areas that you don't understand and might not be interested in, that its all the same to you.

My current theory is that you've misunderstood so much of this discussion, that it is a waste of time to try to convince you of the facts.



Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-25 22:55:30
Quote
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?
Yes. I knew I was not mistaken. I've seen plenty of cartridges that lost their zeal.

Please quantify "lost their zeal"

As stated this could be just a state of  mind thing, with no actual physical changes behind it.
 


Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-26 09:08:46
Re "cantilever life": It's likely Atmasphere is referring to the elastic polymer ("rubber") block that supports the cantilever. In some cases, as it ages it can either turn to "goo" (the cantilever collapses and the cartridge scrapes the record), or harden (the compliance decreases, causing tracking problems).

That is exactly what I alluded to here, and then posted explicitly down the thread

Problem is, the suspension and the cantilever are so different that I can't imagine  out how anybody who has any kind of a workable understanding of how cartridges work would confuse them. Knowing that I may be dealing with unimaginable amounts of ignorance, I even posted a tutorial with a annotated picture containing that information, apparently to no avail.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-26 09:10:44
Quote
So you knew the answer all along and were just laying bait?
Yes. I knew I was not mistaken. I've seen plenty of cartridges that lost their zeal.

I stopped reading his posts for the most part. .

For your next major accomplishment, please stop replying to my posts without reading them. This is obviously what is happening. Your replies would make no sense at all, otherwise.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-26 17:10:34
Wow. Just - wow.

So- when asked if you could just answer the question, which answer might be something like 'I used the legacy cartridge for 'x' reason', you can't just answer, instead feel the need to obfuscate by spewing personal attacks. Sheesh.

How about this: instead of attaching meaning where none existed (because I really was curious why you thought that was important), how about just answer the question? Is that so hard?

I'm thinking right now that you think that answering would make you look bad, so you won't answer the question honestly.

Just a little pointer here, since it might help you run your life: The most powerful motivator in the world is the need to look good, failing that, the need to not look bad. On top of that is the knowledge that if you don't take things personally, then you live with less stress.  I don't take your attacks personally at all because its very clear its not my problem. Just look at the first 2 sentences of this paragraph, reflect on them, take a deep breath and calm down.

And then answer the question without obfuscation. If you are unable to do that we are then in agreement that you are not interested in the truth, as your motivation to look good is so overwhelming that you are willing to contradict yourself (like our president).

Y'know, I when I see that's what you're up to I pass over your attacks. So I miss actual content. If you can lay off the attacks, then I can read your entire post. I think you will find that I'm not as ignorant as you think (I have a degree too, just like you).

I did notice that you did not contest my comments about cartridge loading and preamp stability....
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-07-27 12:27:58
I did notice that you did not contest my comments about cartridge loading and preamp stability....

Why should I?  I've been tuning cartridge response by means of adjusting capacitive and resistive loading since the 1970s.   My recollection is that doing this was recommended by several cartridge manufacturers starting around then.

Obviously, if I use a cartridge, I test its response to various loads.

Off hand, I can tell you that some cartridges respond to this sort of tuning, and some don't.

For example, Shure V15 and M9x family cartridges respond vigorously,  while the Grado's that I have tested have competitive frequency response but don't care.

One of the advantages of building your own gear is that you can add features quickly and not wait around for manufacturers to add them in.  In the late 1970s I built a RIAA preamp with adjustable cartridge loading and used it until I sold my vinyl equipment and media collection in 1983-1984.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-07-27 16:56:09
Good- I've been doing something similar.

Now can you answer the question?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-08-03 14:03:09
Good- I've been doing something similar.

Now can you answer the question?

I am unaware that you have any reasonble unanswered question. OTOH, you have made claims about the sonic performance of vinyl that would be reasonably answerable by means of an audio file uploaded to this web site.

This could be done in short order by anybody who had the technical competence of a bright 12-year-old, given that even if a cutting lathe were not available, a needle drop of several different LP recordings that have been specified and that I have found to be readily available, could be used to make a Needle Drop that would suffice.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-08-03 18:12:59
 ::)

Gawd! You need to read at a level higher than that of a 12-year old.

The question was and has been for some two pages now, why did you see fit to use a legacy cartridge? What possible relevance could that have in your testing?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-08-03 19:31:33
What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-08-03 20:10:33
::)

Gawd! You need to read at a level higher than that of a 12-year old.

The question was and has been for some two pages now, why did you see fit to use a legacy cartridge? What possible relevance could that have in your testing?

I used legacy cartridges for the very same reasons you admitted that you also used it:

I have some legacy gear (as well as new equipment).

Based on casual operational checks, it seemed to be working well.

I have other new gear to compare it to.

I had these additional reasons for using legacy gear.

I had technical means to confirm the cartridge's correct operation that you must lack since they seem to be a mystery to you:

I have a number of legacy and brand new test LPs. The legacy products are NOS.

I have the audio gear and test equipment for performing technical tests.

I have the technical knowledge about how to use my technical testing facilities effectively.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-08-03 21:14:32
Taking things as literally as you have in the past, never at any time have I admitted to using older cartridges, and further, to be clear, I don't use them now. At the shop we use a Grado Statement, at home a Transfiguration Orpheus. Both are low output cartridges of 0.25mV and 0.45mV respectively. My phono section has enough gain that I run them direct without SUTs.

There's a pretty profound difference between the performance of a stereo LP mastering system and a legacy playback system! On the surface, it seems you were unconcerned about obtaining optimal playback performance. Is this due to confirmation bias?

Why do you use the phrase 'legacy cartridge' rather than just saying what it was?
Quote
I have the technical knowledge about how to use my technical testing facilities effectively.

Hm. OK- what tone arm? What phono preamp? What protractor, what geometry, what turntable, what did you use to stabilize the 'table? How did you damp vibration from the LP surface? was the arm damped? Do you load the cartridge (if a LOMC, what loading do you apply to the SUT and what is its bandwidth)? How does the preamp behave in the presence of RFI? Did you notice ticks and pops on the LP surface of your test LPs? If so why did you use it?

Was the arm straight tracking? If not, how did you compensate for the distortion generated and how were you able to tell how much was owed to the arm as opposed to the cartridge?

When I ask these and other questions, I often find flaws in the procedure. I also often find that some people don't even know what I'm talking about, like how to control resonance in the vinyl. So I'm wondering if you controlled these variables or not.

The problem here from my perspective is that I often hear about how terrible the LP format is, yet for some reason the sales is growing and I don't find the LP to sound particularly different other than noise floor from CDs. This suggests that many people (and based on yours and other's comments on this forum) that there is something fundamentally wrong with your LP playback experience. I can't tell why; at least one person got upset when it was suggested in a general way that setup could be to blame.

Again, setup is probably the biggest single reason for going digital; digital is pretty much plug and play unless you're setting up a music server or the like. Analog stuff requires a lot of fiddling, sort of like a 1960s British sports car, with the big difference being once you get it right, you don't have to do it again unless the maid shears off the stylus while dusting.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2017-08-04 01:15:18
Taking things as literally as you have in the past, never at any time have I admitted to using older cartridges, and further

It is not worth the trouble to post the relevant quote from you because you never admit you are wrong, regardless of the evidence.

Quote
Quote
I have the technical knowledge about how to use my technical testing facilities effectively.


Hm. OK- what tone arm?
[/quote]
Shows what little you know. Every turntable I mentioned, I also either mentioned a tone arm, or it comes with one.

I fully expect you to give gratuitous unsupported insults to each and every one.

Quote
What phono preamp?

Various tubed and SS Discrete transistor and chip amps.

However, I fully expect you to give gratuitous unsupported insults to each and every one.

Quote
What protractor, what geometry,

Various, mostly standard engineering/drafting tools.

Quote
what turntable,

I'm accumulating more. I told you what I had at one point. However, the one promise you've kept is to not read my posts. So, now you're acting silly.

Quote
what did you use to stabilize the 'table?

Various objects  made of steel and masonry.  However, stability isn't the problem it usually is because there are no speakers involved. Of course, you'd never know this.

Quote
How did you damp vibration from the LP surfact.

Various absorptive turntable mats.

Quote
  was the arm damped?

News flash: Various arms are damped by various means.

Quote
Do you load the cartridge

Asked and answered.

All cartridges on hand are MM or MI

Quote
How does the preamp behave in the presence of RFI?

Good performance in that regard is determined as part of the setup and adjustment phase. I live in a very low RFI area.

Quote
Did you notice ticks and pops on the LP surface of your test LPs?

I have over 10 test LPs. they vary.

Quote
If so why did you use it?

Tics and pops are normal.  If you had normal hearing,, you'd know this.

Quote
Was the arm straight tracking?

one is, most aren't.

Quote
If not, how did you compensate for the distortion generated and how were you able to tell how much was owed to the arm as opposed to the cartridge?

Please explain the distortion created by straight line arms.

Quote
When I ask these and other questions, I often find flaws in the procedure.

Pretty unlikely, as your questions reveal your level of actual understanding.  Lots of audiophile myth.

Quote
I also often find that some people don't even know what I'm talking about, like how to control resonance in the vinyl. So I'm wondering if you controlled these variables or not.

Your proof of expertise will be the quality of your needle drop files.

If there aren't any needle drop files from you, all of your comments will be disregarded by anybody with a brain.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-08-04 16:34:13
Arie, Please repost without the abusive comments. They are uncalled for.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Wombat on 2017-08-04 16:59:56
Arny is absolutely right asking for something we can listen. You were asked more than once on this forum to bring something we all can listen. This is how HA worked until lately when i remember right.
You did not even answer if you are willing to try.
So far people should give several of your claims as much credit as if you were reporting about your latest alien abduction.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-08-04 19:57:55
Arny is absolutely right asking for something we can listen. You were asked more than once on this forum to bring something we all can listen. This is how HA worked until lately when i remember right.
You did not even answer if you are willing to try.
So far people should give several of your claims as much credit as if you were reporting about your latest alien abduction.

I'm fine with that. I was unaware that he had asked for anything. Probably because when he becomes abusive, I stop reading.

I did answer in my second to last post above that I am willing to try. I asked Arne to what CD he was referring but no answer to that yet.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: pdq on 2017-08-04 20:08:19
How about these (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114377.msg943196.html#msg943196).
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-08-04 22:04:36
[quote author=Atmasphere link=msg=943235 ]I was unaware that he had asked for anything. Probably because when he becomes abusive, I stop reading.[/quote]
Apparently doesn't keep you from arguing with him though.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: Atmasphere on 2017-08-04 22:31:55
Correct. He seems to be wrong on some points and utterly unaware of them.
Title: Re: >20kHz content found in vinyl?
Post by: greynol on 2017-08-04 22:42:41
Project much?!?
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