Hydrogenaudio Forums

Hydrogenaudio Forum => Validated News => Topic started by: M on 16 January, 2003, 07:16:22 PM

Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: M on 16 January, 2003, 07:16:22 PM
Self-explanatory subject line: Speex has now reached RC1. From the Speex project page (http://www.speex.org/):

Quote
This is Release Candidate 1 for Speex 1.0. The only new feature (yes, I know beta4 was supposed to be feature-complete) is a very low bitrate (3.95 kbps) mode for narrowband. This release also fixes a number of bugs, including a fix for low-bitrate wideband encoding—however, this fix adds high-frequency noise during the decoding of beta4 and earlier data. Finally, the WAV handling is more robust and handles undocumented extensions better.

The goal is to release RC2 in early February, and if all goes well (no major bugs are found), release 1.0 before March. For more details, including how you can make 1.0 better, see the Roadmap (http://www.speex.org/todo.html).


  Still no word as to whether the next Vorbis decoder update will incorporate Speex, or when is might arrive... but any progress is welcome. 

    - M.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: jmvalin on 16 January, 2003, 09:01:23 PM
Wow, that's quick! I haven't even had time to the the announcement myself 

Quote
Still no word as to whether the next Vorbis decoder update will incorporate Speex, or when is might arrive... but any progress is welcome.

I guess you mean "integration with Ogg tools" because Vorbis itself will never support Speex. There's currently some work being done to make ogg123 decode Speex files, but I can't say when it will be released.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: M on 16 January, 2003, 09:14:32 PM
Quote
Wow, that's quick! I haven't even had time to the the announcement myself  

Quote
Still no word as to whether the next Vorbis decoder update will incorporate Speex, or when is might arrive... but any progress is welcome.

I guess you mean "integration with Ogg tools" because Vorbis itself will never support Speex. There's currently some work being done to make ogg123 decode Speex files, but I can't say when it will be released.

Hi Jean-Marc. Sorry to pre-empt your announcement... when I saw the January 15th release date (that is, yesterday) in the Roadmap (http://www.speex.org/todo.html) I assumed an announcement had just been overlooked. 

  About Vorbis/Vorbis tools supporting Speex, what I mean is that an integrated decoder which could be used in hardware devices (still thinking of efforts to adapt Tremor for an iRiver circuit board...) would be nice, so that such devices could also play Speex-encoded files. Any chance of this?

    - M.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: jmvalin on 16 January, 2003, 09:50:59 PM
Quote
About Vorbis/Vorbis tools supporting Speex, what I mean is that an integrated decoder which could be used in hardware devices (still thinking of efforts to adapt Tremor for an iRiver circuit board...) would be nice, so that such devices could also play Speex-encoded files. Any chance of this?

Not likely. Vorbis and Speex are two completely separate codecs and the only resemblance is that both use Ogg as their "standard" container. Also, there's no fixed-point implementation of Speex yet, so the work necessary to put it in a hardware decoder is higher than for Vorbis, while the benefits are smaller (the only application I see is audio book). The only place we *might* see "mobile" Speex applications is in the PDA area (e.g. voice recorder, audio books).
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: M on 16 January, 2003, 09:57:04 PM
Quote
(the only application I see is audio book)

... exactly. 

    - M.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: jmvalin on 16 January, 2003, 10:42:06 PM
Quote
Quote
(the only application I see is audio book)

... exactly. 

Still all is not lost. I've had reports of people playing Speex files in real-time on ARM-based PDA's, even with floating point emulation.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: Case on 17 January, 2003, 02:39:18 PM
I recompiled all my Speex plugins, components and filters to use new library version, download here (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/html/other.html).
I also uploaded win32 binaries (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/Speex/speex-win32-1.0rc1.zip) of speexenc + speexdec.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: john33 on 17 January, 2003, 06:18:58 PM
Updated Win32 binaries of speexenc, speexdec and speexdrop are at my 'Others' page at Mirror 1.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: SNYder on 17 January, 2003, 08:55:38 PM
Do you mean Speex is gonna be part of Ogg soon?!!!!  YAY!!!!!!!!!!!

how will that work exactly?  will all bitrates under like 20 be handled by Speex or something?  or will the encoder simply sence if this is a spoken word recording and if the bitrate requested is real low, it will use speex. 
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: jmvalin on 17 January, 2003, 10:30:18 PM
Quote
Do you mean Speex is gonna be part of Ogg soon?!!!!  YAY!!!!!!!!!!!

how will that work exactly?  will all bitrates under like 20 be handled by Speex or something?  or will the encoder simply sence if this is a spoken word recording and if the bitrate requested is real low, it will use speex. 

Being "part of Ogg" doesn't mean anything. Ogg is just a container. It's like saying "part of XML". Basically, Speex has been using the Ogg container since the very early stage and Speex is now part of Xiph.org like Ogg and Vorbis.

One other mis-conception about Speex vs. Vorbis is that it's about bit-rate. It's not. Music encoded with Speex will sound much worse than Vorbis regardless of bit-rate. On the other hand, speech will sound better. Eventually, there might be a "super-codec" that switches between Speex and Vorbis, but don't hold your breath.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: SNYder on 17 January, 2003, 11:32:32 PM
ok.  i knew the second part, but thanks for the first thing you said.

so does that mean future ogg decoders (like the winamp ogg input plugin) will be able to play speex files that are in ogg containers?
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: SNYder on 17 January, 2003, 11:57:40 PM
Quote
Updated Win32 binaries of speexenc, speexdec and speexdrop are at my 'Others' page at Mirror 1.

only speex drop is up, the binaries aren't

and what am i supposed to set "number of frames per ogg packet" at?  i never heard of this feature before.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: john33 on 18 January, 2003, 07:12:06 AM
Quote
only speex drop is up, the binaries aren't

Sorry, a typo in the html!!  Now corrected.
Quote
and what am i supposed to set "number of frames per ogg packet" at?  i never heard of this feature before.

Jean-Marc is the guy to answer that one, but I don't believe it makes a whole lot of difference to anything normally.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: jmvalin on 19 January, 2003, 08:02:09 PM
Quote
so does that mean future ogg decoders (like the winamp ogg input plugin) will be able to play speex files that are in ogg containers?

There are already Speex plugins for Winamp, xmms and other apps. Look at the "plugins & software" page.

As for the meaning of --nframes (i.e. number of frames per packet), it's use is to save on the overhead of the Ogg container. An Ogg stream is divided into packets and there's a fixed overhead in the order of 400 bps. In most cases, this isn't problematic, but for very low bit-rates it can be. For these cases, you can ask Speex to put more than one frame and thus divide the overhead by that number.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: SNYder on 20 January, 2003, 12:41:55 AM
1. i know there are plugins for speex.  i use one of winamp.  im saying, if someone puts a speex file in an ogg container and plays it in winamp and there is no speex plugin installed but there is a ogg plugin installed, in the future, will it be able to play the file?  or will you need to install the speex plugin?  if so, why have the file in an ogg container at all? on second thought, maybe the current container speex uses is the ogg container.  that would explain why there is ogg header options in speexdrop.


2. As for the header frames thingamajig... how do i know if it is being problematic?  im not sure what to look for.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: Destroid on 20 January, 2003, 03:16:30 AM
This might be a poor analogy but I always thought of Ogg as the wheel and that wheel works the same way on a car or a bicycle. The method of energy transfer to become mobile is different for each vehicle and requires different fuel types (Speex, Vorbis). In this sense you can not put Pepsi in your car and expect it to run the same.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: Jon Ingram on 20 January, 2003, 03:24:43 AM
Quote
(snip miscellaneous confusion about plugins)


Ogg is a container format -- nothing else.

So an 'ogg plugin' would only know how to take the stuff inside the ogg container, and pass it on to plugins which know about specific formats (just like AVI, or Quicktime). This probably isn't how it works in WinAmp, but it's how things *should* be done.

Ogg containers can contain anything, although until recently the only thing you'd see inside an ogg container would be vorbis audio.

Recently, other projects have started using the ogg container for their formats, instead of having to invent some container format of their own. Speex uses an ogg container, and FLAC is transitioning from its own container format to ogg.

Quote
As for the header frames thingamajig... how do i know if it is being problematic?


As the man said -- putting something in an ogg container adds some overhead to the filesize. For large enough bitrates, this overhead is negligible (less than 1%). However, for very low bitrate Speex files, the overhead can take up a significant part of the bitrate of the encoded file. In order to reduce this overhead, the Speex encoder lets you place more than one encoded Speex 'frame' inside an ogg 'packet'. This reduces the overhead of the container, at the cost of increased latency in streaming situations. You only need to worry about this if you're planning on encoding very low bitrate Speex files.
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: jcoalson on 20 January, 2003, 05:43:03 PM
Quote
Recently, other projects have started using the ogg container for their formats, instead of having to invent some container format of their own. Speex uses an ogg container, and FLAC is transitioning from its own container format to ogg.

Minor point: native FLAC will still stay around; it is the most useful for storing simple streams of audio.  But there will be increased Ogg FLAC support in the Ogg tools (e.g. I believe oggenc already accepts FLAC now) and I will be adding the missing features (like seeking) to libOggFLAC.

Josh
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: john33 on 20 January, 2003, 06:10:43 PM
Quote
But there will be increased Ogg FLAC support in the Ogg tools (e.g. I believe oggenc already accepts FLAC now) and I will be adding the missing features (like seeking) to libOggFLAC.

Josh

Currently, at least, it's 'unofficial'. It's produced by Stan Seibert (aka Volsung).
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: imi on 23 January, 2003, 05:24:43 AM
In the past, Speex was not able to handle stereo wave input without using a frontend.  Is it possible now?
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: imi on 23 January, 2003, 05:45:43 AM
Yes, it seems to work, but am unable to test it as I have no plugin for winamp to play spx files..... Does such a plugin exist?  Where can I get it from?

Please reply, anyone............
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: john33 on 23 January, 2003, 05:48:55 AM
Quote
Yes, it seems to work, but am unable to test it as I have no plugin for winamp to play spx files..... Does such a plugin exist?  Where can I get it from?

Please reply, anyone............

Here!! (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/html/other.html)
Title: Speex RC1 is out!
Post by: imi on 23 January, 2003, 06:00:47 AM
Cheers!!!!